Advice & Hope with all my Respect

NellyBelly

Registered User
Mar 17, 2012
4
0
Dear Forum,

In looking for advice, understanding and information concerning my father's situation I have been reading different posts in different topics. I have surfed the jungle of the World Wide Web reading laws, printing, thinking, and calling different organizations and authorities trying to make sense of it all. And then I found this Forum of superhuman beings who have far worse situations than what I am dealing with; People, who have already been down the roads of pain and turmoil again and again and again. So I am appealing to your expertise and knowledge. My aim is to protect and respect my Father’s rights and welfare.

My father who lives in Scotland was admitted to Hospital 18 months ago and was declared mentally incapacitated in March 2011. He was moved to a nursing home in May 2011.
I live in Europe and visit him on a regular basis every two months and stay for 2 -4 weeks and can fortunately spend quality time with him because he is in a wonderful nursing home. I have adapted emotionally and found ways to communicate with him, I observe what he can and cannot do. We always played cards together, our only card game now is who has the highest card and we can play for hours. The winner gets a biscuit or a chocolate. He has not lost his humor and sometimes says laughing, “I know you let me win?” And I know, he is still in there, somewhere. I cry for joy. Even though he lives in a different time, I adapt. When he asks, “When do we take the plane? When do we take the bus?, When do we take the boat?” I know which time period he is in.

My Dad was a “Flying Grandpa”. I am a single parent living and working in Europe and for 20 years he was always there. For one city he took the boat, for another he took the bus and eventually he overcame his fear of flying that he took the plane. He stayed with us for months and had his own life and friends in each city. He tried to learn French, German even Spanish. The most important was to be able to order a beer, in any language. I know my Dad, his likes and dislikes, the clothes he would and would never wear, his favorite food, the songs he likes, that he doesn’t like tight socks, would never wear his hair parted, only combed back and never went anywhere without his brill-cream. Even at 70 he was still a rock and roller ready to sing a song with his guitar.

It was decided that in my Dad’s best interests my oldest Brother would become his legal welfare and financial guardian and would first apply for an appointeeship to deal with pensions tax etc.

From the very beginning of my fathers’ illness we have had arguments and he has refused to speak or inform me of anything. It got so bad that I went to the Citizen’s Advice Bureau on behalf of my Father to ask for help and advice. They arranged an immediate meeting with the social Welfare.
I reported that the nurses and doctors refused to tell me anything.
I reported that when I went to my Father’s house I found a dump. My brother was angry that I had entered the house and wanted my key. (I refused, and my daughter and I cleaned the house from top to bottom.)I reported with worry the unpaid bills, the swarms of flies, that his home was being neglected while he was in hospital, the lack of communication and that still no one (Gas board, electricity, etc)had been informed of my Fathers situation. They took notes.
In July 2011, the social services made an emergency meeting and said because I live abroad it is still within my Dad’s best interests for my Brother to become his legal and Welfare Guardian. To keep peace I never argued, I bit my tongue. My brother promised he would keep me involved and informed.

Nothing changed, my brother continued not to take my calls or return my calls or emails.
I decided to let him do his thing. No war.

When I am there I am there for my Father. I buy what he needs without giving it a second thought, thermal underwear, winter coat, slippers, I order new glasses, I stock up his room with things he likes.

But now the situation is worse as I found out the following last week:
The nursing home has not received any money;11 months unpaid. His place is in jeopardy.
The nursing home has never received a personal allowance, for my father.
The money, which I gave my brother, last year, to pay my fathers Bills have not been paid. They are now at creditors.
My brother took away his winter coat, so the nurses had to borrow one from another patient to take him for a doctor’s appointment.

From outside Scotland, I took the bull by the horns. I turned into a tiger and decided I will fight with all my might to protect my father and his rights as an individual human being.
I have written, faxed, called, emailed, every family member, every organization, social services, DWP, Court of protection, I have told every one who loves my father, wake up, stand up and lets find a plan together.

My Father has no property and has/had only a small amount of savings for his funeral costs. I have organized an emergency check from his bank to pay the nursing home via the legal services of his bank. Something my brother could have done a long time ago.

Most of the family are also old age pensioners and are afraid of my older brother, I have another younger brother (with a gambling problem) and not really anyone who wants to apply for Guardianship.

The social services still think I have no chance of becoming my father’s Guardian and I also wonder can my love for my Dad conquer the courts?

Has anybody any knowledge or advice?

With all my respect,

NellieBelly
 

lin1

Registered User
Jan 14, 2010
9,350
0
East Kent
Hello Nelliebelly
welcome toTp

Im in england so feel I cant advise, as some Scottish laws etc are different , but I couldnt read your post and not say, Im so sorry you are going through this
Its bad enough your dad has this vile illness but you now have extra very real concerns.

We do have some very knowledgeable people on here , some live in Scotland , hopefully they will be along soon

Im wondering if the Police need/should to be informed
 

Butter

Registered User
Jan 19, 2012
6,737
0
NeverNeverLand
I would suggest you take legal advice in Scotland from a solicitor (advocate?) who is experienced in this area of the law.
Of course I am so sorry to learn of this painful state of affairs.
 

bunnies

Registered User
May 16, 2010
433
0
I don't know about the law in Scotland, but it would seem to me that when your father was deemed to lack capacity that someone must have been made responsible for his financial affairs? You say it was decided it would be your brother but perhaps imply that it hasn't happened yet. If it is your brother that does hold that position then it would be true that you would not be able to claim rights to enter his property or be involved in his financial affairs, but your brother would have an obligation to manage affairs and if bills haven't been paid surely reporting him to whoever granted the financial guardianship (in England would be the court of protection) should be sufficient, since this would clearly be him not fulfilling the role. On the other hand you say you have made a payment on your father's behalf, and that shouldn't be possible if it is your brother not you that has the guardianship. So am a bit confused about this. Maybe it is completely different in Scotland.
 

NellyBelly

Registered User
Mar 17, 2012
4
0
You have all raised questions and thank you for reading my long story. After I had written it, I felt drained. It has been a heavy week and the questions you have asked I have also asked myself.
I will take a lawyer if I have to.
Just to state clearer, my brother led us to believe that he was going to apply for Guardianship last year, but it turns out he didn't do it. He only started the process of appointeeship last month. which I don't understand. Why would someone say this and not do it, and leave it for so long? Or give the impression that everything was being taken care of and had been done.

I gave him money last year to pay the open bills as he said he didn't have enough money.
The court of protection told me he can't have Guardianship yet, because they would have to have contacted me for that. I didn't know this.
I can lodge an official complaint for an investigation at the court of protection and they will deal with my brother.
My main concern is still my Father. I spoke to my Aunt (my Dad's sister) today and she would now be prepared to do a joint guardianship with me, but not alone.
I am only afraid I will not be accepted because I live abroad. Has anyone, or does anyone know if they grant Guardianship if you live abroad?
Nelly-Belly
 
Last edited:

rajahh

Registered User
Aug 29, 2008
2,790
0
Hertfordshire
Ring up and ask them. you will then get anofficial response. wjem I was doing power of attorney in england, they were very helpful when I didn't understand a form fully.
 

Jancis

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
2,567
0
70
Hampshire
Hello Nelly Belly,

Your thread has moved me deeply. I wish I could offer some good advice to you. I don't understand what your elder brother is up to and wondered if you had a theory?
I don't know what the legal process is in Scotland but in England when there is any dispute about who should have guardianship the Court of Protection appoints a solicitor to act in the capacity of an independent deputy.

I'm really sorry that you're having to go through the stress of all this, it is the last thing you need when you have to deal with the grief of your father's illness.

I thought your description of our father was lovely, he sounds like a wonderful man.
Jancis x
 

toddyboddy2007

Registered User
Mar 18, 2012
2
0
It sounds like your brother could possibly be financially abusing your father which is taken very seriously in the UK.



Dear Forum,

In looking for advice, understanding and information concerning my father's situation I have been reading different posts in different topics. I have surfed the jungle of the World Wide Web reading laws, printing, thinking, and calling different organizations and authorities trying to make sense of it all. And then I found this Forum of superhuman beings who have far worse situations than what I am dealing with; People, who have already been down the roads of pain and turmoil again and again and again. So I am appealing to your expertise and knowledge. My aim is to protect and respect my Father’s rights and welfare.

My father who lives in Scotland was admitted to Hospital 18 months ago and was declared mentally incapacitated in March 2011. He was moved to a nursing home in May 2011.
I live in Europe and visit him on a regular basis every two months and stay for 2 -4 weeks and can fortunately spend quality time with him because he is in a wonderful nursing home. I have adapted emotionally and found ways to communicate with him, I observe what he can and cannot do. We always played cards together, our only card game now is who has the highest card and we can play for hours. The winner gets a biscuit or a chocolate. He has not lost his humor and sometimes says laughing, “I know you let me win?” And I know, he is still in there, somewhere. I cry for joy. Even though he lives in a different time, I adapt. When he asks, “When do we take the plane? When do we take the bus?, When do we take the boat?” I know which time period he is in.

My Dad was a “Flying Grandpa”. I am a single parent living and working in Europe and for 20 years he was always there. For one city he took the boat, for another he took the bus and eventually he overcame his fear of flying that he took the plane. He stayed with us for months and had his own life and friends in each city. He tried to learn French, German even Spanish. The most important was to be able to order a beer, in any language. I know my Dad, his likes and dislikes, the clothes he would and would never wear, his favorite food, the songs he likes, that he doesn’t like tight socks, would never wear his hair parted, only combed back and never went anywhere without his brill-cream. Even at 70 he was still a rock and roller ready to sing a song with his guitar.

It was decided that in my Dad’s best interests my oldest Brother would become his legal welfare and financial guardian and would first apply for an appointeeship to deal with pensions tax etc.

From the very beginning of my fathers’ illness we have had arguments and he has refused to speak or inform me of anything. It got so bad that I went to the Citizen’s Advice Bureau on behalf of my Father to ask for help and advice. They arranged an immediate meeting with the social Welfare.
I reported that the nurses and doctors refused to tell me anything.
I reported that when I went to my Father’s house I found a dump. My brother was angry that I had entered the house and wanted my key. (I refused, and my daughter and I cleaned the house from top to bottom.)I reported with worry the unpaid bills, the swarms of flies, that his home was being neglected while he was in hospital, the lack of communication and that still no one (Gas board, electricity, etc)had been informed of my Fathers situation. They took notes.
In July 2011, the social services made an emergency meeting and said because I live abroad it is still within my Dad’s best interests for my Brother to become his legal and Welfare Guardian. To keep peace I never argued, I bit my tongue. My brother promised he would keep me involved and informed.

Nothing changed, my brother continued not to take my calls or return my calls or emails.
I decided to let him do his thing. No war.

When I am there I am there for my Father. I buy what he needs without giving it a second thought, thermal underwear, winter coat, slippers, I order new glasses, I stock up his room with things he likes.

But now the situation is worse as I found out the following last week:
The nursing home has not received any money;11 months unpaid. His place is in jeopardy.
The nursing home has never received a personal allowance, for my father.
The money, which I gave my brother, last year, to pay my fathers Bills have not been paid. They are now at creditors.
My brother took away his winter coat, so the nurses had to borrow one from another patient to take him for a doctor’s appointment.

From outside Scotland, I took the bull by the horns. I turned into a tiger and decided I will fight with all my might to protect my father and his rights as an individual human being.
I have written, faxed, called, emailed, every family member, every organization, social services, DWP, Court of protection, I have told every one who loves my father, wake up, stand up and lets find a plan together.

My Father has no property and has/had only a small amount of savings for his funeral costs. I have organized an emergency check from his bank to pay the nursing home via the legal services of his bank. Something my brother could have done a long time ago.

Most of the family are also old age pensioners and are afraid of my older brother, I have another younger brother (with a gambling problem) and not really anyone who wants to apply for Guardianship.

The social services still think I have no chance of becoming my father’s Guardian and I also wonder can my love for my Dad conquer the courts?

Has anybody any knowledge or advice?

With all my respect,

NellieBelly
 

Winnie Kjaer

Account Closed
Aug 14, 2009
2,011
0
Devon
finances

Dear Forum,

In looking for advice, understanding and information concerning my father's situation I have been reading different posts in different topics. I have surfed the jungle of the World Wide Web reading laws, printing, thinking, and calling different organizations and authorities trying to make sense of it all. And then I found this Forum of superhuman beings who have far worse situations than what I am dealing with; People, who have already been down the roads of pain and turmoil again and again and again. So I am appealing to your expertise and knowledge. My aim is to protect and respect my Father’s rights and welfare.

My father who lives in Scotland was admitted to Hospital 18 months ago and was declared mentally incapacitated in March 2011. He was moved to a nursing home in May 2011.
I live in Europe and visit him on a regular basis every two months and stay for 2 -4 weeks and can fortunately spend quality time with him because he is in a wonderful nursing home. I have adapted emotionally and found ways to communicate with him, I observe what he can and cannot do. We always played cards together, our only card game now is who has the highest card and we can play for hours. The winner gets a biscuit or a chocolate. He has not lost his humor and sometimes says laughing, “I know you let me win?” And I know, he is still in there, somewhere. I cry for joy. Even though he lives in a different time, I adapt. When he asks, “When do we take the plane? When do we take the bus?, When do we take the boat?” I know which time period he is in.

My Dad was a “Flying Grandpa”. I am a single parent living and working in Europe and for 20 years he was always there. For one city he took the boat, for another he took the bus and eventually he overcame his fear of flying that he took the plane. He stayed with us for months and had his own life and friends in each city. He tried to learn French, German even Spanish. The most important was to be able to order a beer, in any language. I know my Dad, his likes and dislikes, the clothes he would and would never wear, his favorite food, the songs he likes, that he doesn’t like tight socks, would never wear his hair parted, only combed back and never went anywhere without his brill-cream. Even at 70 he was still a rock and roller ready to sing a song with his guitar.

It was decided that in my Dad’s best interests my oldest Brother would become his legal welfare and financial guardian and would first apply for an appointeeship to deal with pensions tax etc.

From the very beginning of my fathers’ illness we have had arguments and he has refused to speak or inform me of anything. It got so bad that I went to the Citizen’s Advice Bureau on behalf of my Father to ask for help and advice. They arranged an immediate meeting with the social Welfare.
I reported that the nurses and doctors refused to tell me anything.
I reported that when I went to my Father’s house I found a dump. My brother was angry that I had entered the house and wanted my key. (I refused, and my daughter and I cleaned the house from top to bottom.)I reported with worry the unpaid bills, the swarms of flies, that his home was being neglected while he was in hospital, the lack of communication and that still no one (Gas board, electricity, etc)had been informed of my Fathers situation. They took notes.
In July 2011, the social services made an emergency meeting and said because I live abroad it is still within my Dad’s best interests for my Brother to become his legal and Welfare Guardian. To keep peace I never argued, I bit my tongue. My brother promised he would keep me involved and informed.

Nothing changed, my brother continued not to take my calls or return my calls or emails.
I decided to let him do his thing. No war.

When I am there I am there for my Father. I buy what he needs without giving it a second thought, thermal underwear, winter coat, slippers, I order new glasses, I stock up his room with things he likes.

But now the situation is worse as I found out the following last week:
The nursing home has not received any money;11 months unpaid. His place is in jeopardy.
The nursing home has never received a personal allowance, for my father.
The money, which I gave my brother, last year, to pay my fathers Bills have not been paid. They are now at creditors.
My brother took away his winter coat, so the nurses had to borrow one from another patient to take him for a doctor’s appointment.

From outside Scotland, I took the bull by the horns. I turned into a tiger and decided I will fight with all my might to protect my father and his rights as an individual human being.
I have written, faxed, called, emailed, every family member, every organization, social services, DWP, Court of protection, I have told every one who loves my father, wake up, stand up and lets find a plan together.

My Father has no property and has/had only a small amount of savings for his funeral costs. I have organized an emergency check from his bank to pay the nursing home via the legal services of his bank. Something my brother could have done a long time ago.

Most of the family are also old age pensioners and are afraid of my older brother, I have another younger brother (with a gambling problem) and not really anyone who wants to apply for Guardianship.

The social services still think I have no chance of becoming my father’s Guardian and I also wonder can my love for my Dad conquer the courts?

Has anybody any knowledge or advice?

With all my respect,

NellieBelly

Hello NellieBelly
I am really very sorry to read your sad story, you sound a lovely daughter to your gorgeous father whom you describe so lovingly.

I am a bit confused too because you write your father has no property and only a small amount of savings for his funeral expenses. Why are you then paying for his care?

If he (in England) has under I believe it is about £14000-£16000 social services pay for all his care, if he has between that amount and £23500 your father would pay a contribution and SS the balance. Only if he has more than £23500 does he pay for the care himself and I don't consider that a small amount!! I know Scotland is somehow different but for the better I believe.

Has your father had a means test which is done by social services to attain how much he has to pay? Have you tried to speak with Social Services about all this, they are mostly very helpful even though a lot of people do not think so.

It is quite right that you will be contacted before your brother can official become your dads legal representative, but if your father is not of a sound mind now, it is not quite so straight forward. It can be done though albeit slightly different. Would your brother agree to you and your aunt handling your fathers affairs? Perhaps he just finds it all too much!! Does he visit your father? What does the care home think about all this? Lots of questions but with a few pointers you will get more replies I am sure.

I really feel for you my mother lived abroad for years before finally coming to live with us and it is really hard to be a long distance carer. I wish you all the best.
 

NellyBelly

Registered User
Mar 17, 2012
4
0
Hello NellieBelly
I am really very sorry to read your sad story, you sound a lovely daughter to your gorgeous father whom you describe so lovingly.

I am a bit confused too because you write your father has no property and only a small amount of savings for his funeral expenses. Why are you then paying for his care?

If he (in England) has under I believe it is about £14000-£16000 social services pay for all his care, if he has between that amount and £23500 your father would pay a contribution and SS the balance. Only if he has more than £23500 does he pay for the care himself and I don't consider that a small amount!! I know Scotland is somehow different but for the better I believe.

Has your father had a means test which is done by social services to attain how much he has to pay? Have you tried to speak with Social Services about all this, they are mostly very helpful even though a lot of people do not think so.

It is quite right that you will be contacted before your brother can official become your dads legal representative, but if your father is not of a sound mind now, it is not quite so straight forward. It can be done though albeit slightly different. Would your brother agree to you and your aunt handling your fathers affairs? Perhaps he just finds it all too much!! Does he visit your father? What does the care home think about all this? Lots of questions but with a few pointers you will get more replies I am sure.

I really feel for you my mother lived abroad for years before finally coming to live with us and it is really hard to be a long distance carer. I wish you all the best.

Dear Winnie Kjaer,
Thank you for these questions. I will try to explain logically. It's quite difficult to be informative and write clearly, I seem to slide over to my emotions and true I miss out a lot of facts. So here I go.

A payment plan for the nursing home exists so a means test must have been made.
I know that Social Services pay a part and then my fathers pension should be forwarded to the Nursing home. via an appointee
So basically it's forwarding money to the home and also he has the right to a weekly private allowance of around 22 Pounds.
It's my fathers part which has not been paid to the home.
The home also told me, my Father has never received any private allowance.

I spoke to social services last week and they had already decided to revoke my brother's application. Apparently he didn't react to any letters or return any calls to the Social Services or the home.
My brother visits him min 1 max 2 times a week for not longer than 10mins. He has no children and I'm sorry to say a very snobby snobby ......wife. Just as cold as he is.
My Father and brother were never close. They saw each other once a year. He lived 15mins by car from my father.

The people at the home are great. They are going to make a document for me
1) how negligent and uncommunicative my brother has been
2) how many times and how much time I have spent with my father
Luckily the home a visitors book which has to be signed with date and time going in and out
I am pretty sure my brother hasn't applied for guardianship.
How he will react to me and my aunt applying for guardianship? I don't know.

Tomorrow I will know more, I have a phone appointment with my fathers social worker.
NellieBelly
 

NellyBelly

Registered User
Mar 17, 2012
4
0
Found out today, guardianship doesn't work.
All I want to do is to help him. Who is responsible for these poor people when something goes wrong. It's a labyrinth,... and today I got lost trying to understand what I misunderstood.
 

Katie10

Registered User
Mar 18, 2012
10
0
Hi - I'm from Scotland. I can't give you legal advice but I know that your dad's local authority (social services) is responsible for his care. They must appoint a social worker to deal with his case. The social worker must put a care plan in place after talking to everyone concerned with his wellbeing - that would include GP and both yourself and your brother. Personal care is free in Scotland - your Dad does not need to pay for this. The social worker will ensure he has access to the care he needs. I think you only pay if you have over a certain amount of money/assets (£24K) but his home could be sold to repay (if he owns it). I'd urge you to contact the appropriate local authority. If you don't know which one it is, tell me where he lives and I'll find out for you.
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
Nellybelly,

I have just been through the guardianship process in Scotland for my mother and I am not resident in Scotland. There is nothing that I am aware of that prevents you being a guardian for your dad if you live overseas. Indeed, when I was applying, interviews etc were carried out by telephone for social services to assess my suitability to be a guardian. On more than one occasion someone mentioned to me that many Guardians live overseas. What makes you think that Guardianship wouldn't work?

There are 2 types of guardianship in scotland. One for financial and property and the other for welfare. Given your dad's circumstances, I would think that it would be appropriate for you to apply for both. This would not only give you control of his finances but it would also mean that you would be responsible for making any decisions regarding his welfare, for example, where he lives, what type of care he has, making any decisions in the future about medical treatments etc. You could manage his finances via direct debit to the local authority or you could obtain a cheque book and send cheques.

Another thing that I find is strange is you being told that the care home hasn't been paid. With my mother for example, the Local Authority are the ones who have the contract with the care home and they pay the home every month. They in turn invoice my mother for her pension money (minus the personal allowance money). I would certainly be asking the local authority why they haven't done this quite frankly.

In the meantime I would ask the court of protection to investigate what your brother has been up to. The reason I say this is that if you do take over as guardian then you want to make sure that everything is transparent before you take over. Last thing you want is to take the rap for something your brother may or may not have done! In addition, I would ask the court of protection how you stop your brother becoming an appointee for your dad with the department of work and pensions. Maybe they would contact them and put a stop to his application perhaps?

It really does sound like someone is feeding your bum information somewhere, so if you tell us who is telling you what then we might be able to point you in the right direction.

Hope this helps and if you need more information or explanations then please don't hesitate to ask.

Fiona