Told I'll have to sell the house and leave to pay off final cost of care home fees

[GingerKat]

Hi All

My mother has recently been diagnosed with vascular dementia and has had to go into a nursing home straight from hospital. The doctor informed me that it would be impossible for me look after her at home because she needed 24-hour specialist medical care and I had no choice but to find a nursing home for her. I wasn't present at the time, but on discharge, the social worker assigned to Mum tells me that a medical panel decided that since the UTIs that were contributing to her confusion were no longer present, her condition has improved since admission and, therefore, they decided she was no longer eligible for continuing healthcare under the NHS.

Mum's savings are under £22,500 but as she is the householder of the house in which we have both lived all our lives I'm informed by our local Council that, this house will be taken into account as an asset and that following an initial three month period during which the Council make up the shortfall, £250 per week will be charged against the value of the house to help cover the cost of Mum's nursing home fees.

Apparently, I was told that the local Council don't have a policy of forcing people to sell their houses to pay for nursing home fees whilst they are alive. When I asked the finance officer what would happen when my Mum passes away she told me that they would want the fees paid upfront within a period of 56 days - otherwise the final total would then start to accrue interest from the 57th day onwards. As the house is a terraced house valued at around £100,000 and Mum is likely to live for a good few years yet (and naturally I hope she does live as long as she's not suffering) the final total is likely to come to the maximum £80,000 that the Council are allowed to take.

Unfortunately, as I do not have that sort of money to spare, the Council have told me that I will then need to sell the house and pay them around £80,000 in profit - when the time comes they will allow me to keep approx. £16,000.

Obviously I do not want to lose the one and only roof over my head. Apparently however, because I am a single, childless person between the ages of 18 to 60 - even though I am still living in the house, have no other home and do not earn sufficient income to buy another - I will need to sell up, get out and pay up within 56 days of my mother's death.

Anyone else in the same boat or ever had a similar experience?

 

[2jays]

No experience of this. My first thought Reading this was contact solicitor / Citizens Advice. I have in the back of my mind that as it's your only home they have to take that into consideration and not leave you homeless. as I said no expert but sure there must be a fact sheet on here dealing with this problem.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come along, when they can, to give you more info.
Thinking of you
J

 

[BeckyJan]

Hello and welcome.

It difficult to give individual advice as we know so little of your personal circumstances.

However I do suggest you telephone the Alzheimer's Society National Helpline who are open 8.30 am - 6.00 pm Monday - Friday. Their telephone number is:
0845 300 0336

Best wishes

 

[GingerKat]

Hi 2jays and BeckyJan

Many thanks for responding to my post and for your advice.

I forgot to mention in my original post that the finance officer from the council advised me to send them a letter arguing why I think the house should be disregarded. Apparently, they have the power to exercise discretion in some cases, even if the person still resident in the house does not fall into any of the legally protected categories.

She also asked me if I had been my mother's primary carer and for how long. When I thought about it I answered that over the past five years or so Mum had become pretty much dependent on me although I didn't really consider myself her carer as I work full-time Mondays to Fridays. I'd do the shopping, cook each day, pay any bills, council tax etc. and sort out and pay for any work that needed to be done on the house because Mum gradually couldn't do it anymore. I was told that it was a pity that I hadn't been claiming carers' allowance (as I was working I didn't think I was entitled to it) because the council would have seen this as evidence and looked upon my request for them to disregard the house in a much more favourable light.

One of the other problems has been that Mum hasn't made a will. Fortunately, she was well enough for both of us to meet and sort this out with a solicitor who visited the hospital and my power of attorney is being processed right now. The solicitor also brought up the subject of the house and although she basically told me that I didn't stand much of a chance of having it disregarded as I'm single, childless and between the ages of 18-60, she suggested that maybe it would be a good idea for me to contact her before I sign any financial forms re Mum's nursing home fees etc.

As I'm on a fairly low income I'm a bit afraid of running up any more solicitor's fees but I'm considering this as a last resort if my letter fails to convince the council (which, admittedly, it probably will).

The only other alternative - which seems to be the most likely one at the moment - is to give up work and look after my Mum full-time. However, since I've been told that I wouldn't be able to do it on my own and without specialist 24-hour care etc. then the finance officer informed me that social services might not approve it and - although they can't stop Mum and I living together again if we both want that - they have the power, nevertheless, to withdraw any help or respite care towards us.

Many thanks for considering my post and for your suggestions.

Best wishes

GingerKat

 

[jenniferpa]

I wouldn't disagree with anything you've been told, really, except for that last bit. Social services have a duty of care towards your mother and they can't simply withdraw services as retribution for you insisting your mother returned to her home (if that's what you want). I'm not saying they might not make it difficult (because sometimes they can make it difficult for no reason at all) but if your mother is entitled to community support (such as carers visits and respite) then they can't withdraw them on the basis that you haven't fallen in line with their wishes.

The LA do have the discretion to decide the house should be disregarded, that is true, and I hope for your sake that they decide to do this.

Can I ask exactly what it is about your mother's condition that requires "24hr specialist medical care"? I ask because if that really is true that would imply that she should be eligible for NHS continuing care. However, what I suspect it means that your mother needs 24 hour care which to my mind is quite different. If she is still ambulatory (and in some circumstances even if she isn't) and doesn't have a number of other medical issues that need to be managed then there is probably no reason on a technical basis why you shouldn't care for her at home.

I'm not saying your should - this is a major undertaking that shouldn't be entered into lightly, but lot of people do do this without being specialists, medical or otherwise (or at least, they aren't when they start). Doctors often have no idea what family carers can or are wiling to do, although equally the doctor may have said this because he/she felt it wasn't reasonable to expect you to have to give up work etc. That may be compassionate on his/her part but often they have no idea of the financial implications of such an edict.

 

[donkey]

i was told that the house is disregarded on the financial assessment because i still live there, but this applies too spouses carers etc too the house is in both names so i dont no if this makes a difference .

 

[piedwarbler]

I would make an appointment at your local MP's surgery and go and see what they think and if they can help. I feel it's really unfair you might lose the roof over your head. Good luck xx

 

[GingerKat]

Hi Jenniferpa, donkey & piedwarbler

Many thanks for your help, suggestions and support.

When the finance officer came out to visit me from Council after discussing what they proposed to do she advised me to write a letter to the Finance Manager putting forward any arguments that I could think of as why I think they should disregard the house. I sent it off about a week ago and when I phoned them this morning they confirmed that they had received it and informed me that the Finance Manager would reply as soon as possible.

As I haven't received anything signed and in writing from the Council I am looking for clarification at this stage as to what they are proposing to do. I need to act fast, because as of February next year the initial three-month disregard period is up and the house becomes a deferred payment at the rate of £250 per week(!)

I doubt very much whether they'll disregard the house, so the most likely option that I will take is to give up work, take Mum out of the nursing home and try my best to look after her at home. I've had my job for 12 years and I realise how lucky I've been to have a permanent, regular job - especially these days. However, when faced with the option of being a.) homeless or b.) jobless, like most people I'll choose jobless.

 

[hollycat]

Similar position

Bought my mum and dads council house 20 years ago.
Mum and dad lived in it rent free for 20 years.
Advised mum in 1993 to set up a will and trust etc therefore seek legal advice.
In 2000 dad died.

JUST SEE SOLICITOR and been advised that house is NOT PROTECTED from care home fees
I cant recover the money I loaned mum to buy house as NO LOAN AGREEMENT

Solicitors advice was to contact council and discuss possibility of disregarding the house.
I am mums carer and have given up work to be her fulltime carer. I have NEVER claimed anything in my life, however, having read your post I FEEL ALMOST FORCED INTO DOING SO to strengthen the protection of the house.

I would have been quite happy to simply cover the amount of the initial loan and allow the council to sell mums home to care for her.

My mum is perhaps 3 years away from needing care but I suppose you never know. I have therefore taken an interesting step and written to the council, if you wish, 3 years early and asked for a ruling NOW.

I will let you and the rest of the folks know how we get on.

What minefield this caring etc is !!!! At the end of the day all most folk seem to want is the best for their loved ones and similarly, the loved ones would want the best for theirs.

If my mum could fully understand what was going on she would be marching down to the council offices demanding answers !!!!

I pray that a sensible solution is reached for you

 

[Bob S]

Bought my mum and dads council house 20 years ago.
Mum and dad lived in it rent free for 20 years.
Advised mum in 1993 to set up a will and trust etc therefore seek legal advice.
In 2000 dad died.

JUST SEE SOLICITOR and been advised that house is NOT PROTECTED from care home fees
I cant recover the money I loaned mum to buy house as NO LOAN AGREEMENT

Solicitors advice was to contact council and discuss possibility of disregarding the house.
I am mums carer and have given up work to be her fulltime carer. I have NEVER claimed anything in my life, however, having read your post I FEEL ALMOST FORCED INTO DOING SO to strengthen the protection of the house.

I would have been quite happy to simply cover the amount of the initial loan and allow the council to sell mums home to care for her.

My mum is perhaps 3 years away from needing care but I suppose you never know. I have therefore taken an interesting step and written to the council, if you wish, 3 years early and asked for a ruling NOW.

I will let you and the rest of the folks know how we get on.

What minefield this caring etc is !!!! At the end of the day all most folk seem to want is the best for their loved ones and similarly, the loved ones would want the best for theirs.

If my mum could fully understand what was going on she would be marching down to the council offices demanding answers !!!!

I pray that a sensible solution is reached for you

I would seek a second opinion on this one. Is the house registered with the land registry in your name? Was a mortgage ever taken out and if so in whose name?

 

[&breathe...]

very similar...

Hi,

Really interested to read about your dilemma... I'm in a very similar situation.

My mum was diagnosed with Alzheimer's almost two years ago although I have been caring for her at home for almost five years. I have lived at home all my life and have paid a weekly rent for as long as I can remember as well as contributing to bills, food, clothing and recently started paying the mortgage.

As my mum was wandering and needed to be watched, she had to go into a care home because she and my siblings didn't want me to give up work (I work full-time). I feel she has rapidly deteriorated in the care home and want to bring her home but the LA has said that she is at risk and a danger to herself and others because of previous behaviours.

The property is in my mum's name but we have heard that if a carer lives in the property, then it cannot be a forced sell because the carer cannot be made homeless. I don't know if this would apply to me because as I work full-time, I also thought that I was not entitled to Carer's Allowance. We have also heard that LAs do have discretion to disregard properties.

If anybody knows anything about this area or if your property has been disregarded, it would be good to hear from you.

Thanks

 

[&breathe...]

GingerKat - also like you, I'm single without children and between 18-60

Hi piedwarbler - I think I will go to my local MP - thanks

 

[jenniferpa]

Local Authorities do have the discretion to disregard properties but they don't do it often. As to disregarding if it is the home of a carer - they can but it does tend to happen more if the carer is older and/or has given up their own home to care for the person.

Your mother is currently in a care home, correct? How is this currently being funded?

 

[hollycat]

Hi,

Really interested to read about your dilemma... I'm in a very similar situation.

My mum was diagnosed with Alzheimer's almost two years ago although I have been caring for her at home for almost five years. I have lived at home all my life and have paid a weekly rent for as long as I can remember as well as contributing to bills, food, clothing and recently started paying the mortgage.

As my mum was wandering and needed to be watched, she had to go into a care home because she and my siblings didn't want me to give up work (I work full-time). I feel she has rapidly deteriorated in the care home and want to bring her home but the LA has said that she is at risk and a danger to herself and others because of previous behaviours.

The property is in my mum's name but we have heard that if a carer lives in the property, then it cannot be a forced sell because the carer cannot be made homeless. I don't know if this would apply to me because as I work full-time, I also thought that I was not entitled to Carer's Allowance. We have also heard that LAs do have discretion to disregard properties.

If anybody knows anything about this area or if your property has been disregarded, it would be good to hear from you.

Thanks

Hi

Fully concur with Jennifer's post above.

The council has the CHOICE to CHOOSE if they feel like disregarding the property when a carer lives in the property. My hubby has read an enormous amount of higher level documents regarding how the council should or should not act.

In summary, the rules are so loose, it allows the council total freedom to read it how they want to read it. Sorry to sound negative, but in the current financial climate, dare I suggest that if I were the council, I suppose in everybodies interest in my county, I would be trying to being in as much money as I could to counteract against cuts.

However, thank goodness I am not the council and have to make these difficult financial decisions.

 

[librarygirl]

I am in same position. Mum died in care home on 12th December. We are joint owners of our bungalow - I am 50 and am single and childless and have always lived here and paid mortgage and bills for 20 years. The Council funded the care. I have now received a bill for £35,000 from them. I can't afford to move out and buy somewhere else after paying off council and mortgage. I did appeal against the decision originally when Mum first went in home, but they refused. I have written another long letter explaining my position, and am waiting to hear. Its like a nightmare, but I am told that they can't make me move out of the house. I am sure this is the case - they will have to wait to get the money until you are ready.
Best of luck.

 

[FifiMo]

Librarygirl,

I would consider going to the citizen's advice bureau about this. The approach I would take in asking for advice is - how do you sell part of a house? Is the mortgage in your name for example? How did your mum come about being a joint owner of the house? One of the lawyers at the CAB might be able to point you in the right direction in getting this sorted out. Sounds like a travesty someone losing their home in these circumstances. I certainly wouldn't go down without a fight. If CAB can't help then next step would be the press.

Best of luck and do let us know how you get on.

Fiona

 

[jenniferpa]

You say this all started 3 1/2 years ago. It was around then when CRAG was changed to indicate that the LA needed consider if a property owned by more than one person actually had value. I'm going to see if I can find exactly when this changed.

 

[jenniferpa]

Incidentally which year did your mother go into care? Would that have been after April 2008? Or before?

 

[&breathe...]

Hi,
Thanks for all your responses.

As my mum had started to wander and was classified as being at risk to herself and I couldn't watch her 24/7 without giving up work, she went into immediate EMI residential respite for 12 weeks at the end of last year with a view to a permanent placement which started this Monday 23rd. We were told the 'contribution' should be paid for 12 weeks and then funding will be assessed once the financial assessment had been completed. I am completing the form but feel that as I wanted to move out years ago but couldn't (because of the illness); have contributed to the upkeep and mortgage of the house; and don't think it's right that I'm made homeless, that I needed to mention it to the LA.

I know that I'm lucky in comparison to some people and don't get me wrong, I would do anything for my mum but when I have put my life on hold for years (as I'm sure many of us have); have only just started talking to people about what's been happening because it's been a really difficult time (as we all know); and then find that I could be made homeless, I just don't think it's right and something needs to be said. It seems that there's no support for family members who have done all they could until a care home is the only option...&breathe...

 

[FifiMo]

From what you describe, you have been acting in the capacity as your mum's carer. Sure you work but heck, there are more hours in the day outside of work when you were contained in the house due to having to care for your mother. Point out to them that they refused to provide night time care and they know she was wandering - ask who they think went without sleep when she was trying to get out of the house at night! Calculate how many hours you were "caring" for her each day - so lets say you were out for 9 hours a day - that still leaves 15 hours a day in a caring role (Mon-Fri) plus 48hours over the weekend - this equates to 123 hours a week of caring on your part. Now go check out the number of hours per week that qualifies you as being her carer. Tell them you had no option BUT to work because you were maintaining the household as well as caring. Do you have any neighbours that will write a letter for you confirming that this was the case and that you were really there in the capacity of her carer rather than having the freedom to come and go as you wanted? Dig out your bank accounts and highlight any payments that were for household bills/mortgage etc. Did you transfer money to your mum's account at times perhaps? Look for any evidence around the house that shows that you were contributing to what you classed as "your home". Have a look online too at past things like census forms, see if they show you as being registered there and for how long. Go to the library and see if they have copies of things like voters registers - are you on those? Get your mum's council tax statements out - if you were there then she would not have received any discount - check that you can prove that too. This might be extreme, but also find out about stupidities like squatters rights - even they end up with legal rights if they've been squatting in a building for more than a certain period of time do they not?

Don't go down without a fight! Go sock it to them. If all else fails, then go to the press!

Fiona