Avoiding nursing home fees

[DeborahBlythe]

If my Mum could be made better, it would be worth all the money in the world.
Kayla

Of course it would Kayla, and mine too.
Richard, very sorry your mum has gone downhill and that you are under such pressure. Skye's advice is really sound, and so is Grannie G's. There are some truly excellent people contributing to this site, hope it will help you to find a way forward.

 

[noelphobic]

There could be some kind of interest free loan to meet any shortfall, just like the Student Loan System. Kayla

I have already made my views clear on funding of care/nursing home places earlier in this thread and in others, so won't go into all that again. What I will say is that my understanding is that people cannot be compelled to sell their homes to pay for care. The Local Authority can put a charge on the home and must be paid back when the home is sold. In the meantime they pay the care or nursing home fees and this 'loan' is interest free until after the death of the resident.

 

[janishere]

Have a Look at the Fight the Bureaucracy Website

Here is a link to the campaign devoted to helping those who wish to fight this national scandal which I highly recommend:

http://www.fightthebureaucracy.co.uk

You will find the latest posts regarding the attempted bullying of a carer and her Mum by Social Services before Christmas to force him into a care home without any proper consultation.

This carer and her parent are just one of thousands being treated in this callous and inconsiderate manner merely so that the NHS can avoid fulfilling its statutory duty on purely economic grounds.

Also the campaign is discussing the holding of a protest march in the New Year.

It's time for action, whether by word or deed. Remember, some courageous people once fought against the levying of the poll tax and went to prison for it (the minority as usual). And my friends, they won.

I see that on this forum only one previous laudable poster recommended going to court to recover the money unlawfully paid for care. There is the court route, or there is "can't pay, won't pay" and sign nothing. If we all did one or the other, the Government would have to cave in, but while so many of us are still craven moral cowards when faced with the power of this calculating and cold bureaucracy, the battle may well be a long one I am afraid. When will Middle England arouse from it slumbers?

 

[noelphobic]

There is the court route, or there is "can't pay, won't pay" and sign nothing. If we all did one or the other, the Government would have to cave in, but while so many of us are still craven moral cowards when faced with the power of this calculating and cold bureaucracy, the battle may well be a long one I am afraid. When will Middle England arouse from it slumbers?

I think it's unfair to call those who, for whatever reason, haven't actively fought against care home costs 'cowards'. Many people like myself are opposed to these fees but have many reasons for not taking action. I am sure that if there was an organised union of people fighting this then more people, myself included, would become involved.

 

[Michael E]

I am of the opinion that there is a big difference between being a bit dotty = having AD and being medically ill or dangerously insane. I think the bit dotty scenario, in the best possible world, would have the extended family gathering round and (cos we all live in the same street) the burden is shared. In to-days society it appears that one person takes the responsibility and the rest mainly duck!

In the medically ill - insane scenario then it is up to the national health service to do what families cannot do. No great problem with that myself.


Putting people in 'care homes' is a solution. It means that the extended family (which does not exist and are ducking) do not have to 'cope' with the situation. I suspect that the care home solution is not necessarily a bad one. Possibly it can be the best possible solution for the person with AD.

But why on earth should society pay? It is down to the person with AD to pay until they cannot at which time the state will step in and pay for them till they die. That seems pretty fair and good to me...

In the next 12 months or 12 years my wife Monique will need to go into a home because there will come a point when I think I will not be able or possibly want to hack it any more... The only way I can possibly finance that is by selling our quite nice house, investing the money in a couple of rental properties and my going back to living in a boat.. I may also have to sell of more of the family jewels (nobody ever gave me nothing - made it all myself!!!) in order to finance this plan...

It may be, that in the end, there is little, less, or no inheritance for my children. So what? Fine if there is something left over, when I fall through the trap, then great but I intend to make Monique as comfortable and have the best quality of life possible in the circumstances and when I become old and decrepid the same for me...

I really liked this from an earlier post ......

[Well would she now?, I wonder. Because if grannie was in her right mind she might see what an uninterested group of people most of her children and grandchildren are. She might see that they barely visit even on high days and holidays. And in fact, when reminded recently, in a moment of lucidity, that she had some money in savings she said "Well please spend it on me, for goodness sake".
/QUOTE]

Michael

 

[Lila13]

By the way, they won at the expense of another minority who had to pay more after poll tax ...


Lila

Remember, some courageous people once fought against the levying of the poll tax and went to prison for it (the minority as usual). And my friends, they won.

QUOTE]

 

[Helena]

For what its worth IMHO Poll Tax was the only fair way to charge for Council services

From what I could see The people who objected tended to be a vocal section of the population where there were several working adults living often in rented council property where in the past the rates were cheap but suddenly because there were say 4 working adults they objected to having to pay a lot more in total

The winners were the single people or young couples struggling to bring up a family on one wage

However the vocal minority won and left us stuck with the highly iniquitous Community charge

To base a charge for services on house value is obscene

What my house cost me 30 years ago has zero to do with ability to pay now in retirement

Its just as wrong to charge those with savings or a house with care home costs

If the same person has Cancer they will receive free care in hospital or hospice

yet if they fall victim to Vascular Dementia or Alzheimers they are stripped of everything bar £12,000

The NHS is there for everyone irrespective of ability to pay or type of disease
Thats the law and that why care home fee charging is illegal

 

[shauny]

fees

Hi Happy new year folks. An interesting debate this one and unfortunately its not happening in the big house in London. Politicians are frightened to make decisions about long-term plans they only think from one election to another. Therefore we are still in a mess as to how to fund long-term care and more importantly who pays for it. I notice there is a major conference in February about this but the question remains will our political masters listen to its message? Shauny.

 

[Kayla]

Michael says that there is a big difference between being a bit "dotty" and being medically ill. However it isn't as simple as that, because many people have AD or Vascular Dementia as well as other serious medical conditions. My Mum was able to cope with her physical disabilities due to severe rheumatoid arthritris until her memory and sense of time got totally muddled. Even then she could (and still can) hold a perfectly lucid and reasonable conversation, before coming out with something incredible. She is well aware that she is confused and muddled and gets very frightened when she has hallucinations, or is in a different time zone to everyone else.
Things suddenly got bad and she no longer wanted to live alone and needed 24 hour care because of her falls. It is difficult to pick someone up from the floor who has severe Rheumatoid Arthritis because every joint in their body is very painful. The Care Home seemed the best solution because 24/7 care would be guaranteed and she would always have company. I am an only child, so there was no-one else to help me with her. Everything was fine until Mum broke her hip and needed to go into the NH.
We had to work things out for ourselves very quickly and perhaps didn't look into everything we could have done. Noelphobic mentioned the deferred payment system, but I wonder how many people are actually informed about this? I discovered TP by chance and wouldn't have thought of investigating the Alzheimer's website because I'd been told that Mum didn't have AD. It is quite hard to deal with Vascular Dementia because people can swing rapidly from one extreme to another and yet at other times seem fairly normal. Sometimes I feel as if I'm the one who is confused!
Kayla

 

[Helena]

Kayla

I know exactly how you feel

My Mother insisted for many many months that it was everyone else in the world who was mad not her .
Once I enacted the EPA i soon found out just how far things had slipped in the previous 8 years
Once registered the EPA exposed more problems not the least of which was nothing was insured

Her sudden hospitilisation and then death has revealed the full extent of what had been neglected

Of one thing I am certain

1) My Mother was detrmined never to go into a care home much less have her savings used to pay for one

2) she will now be turning in her ashes with a vengeance and haunting Gordon Brown for the incredible inheritance tax grab he has taken on what she as someone who was definitely never rich considered to belong to herself myself and my sister

I cant help but be upset at what she should have enjoyed or the help she could have given grandchildren and great grandchildren if only Vascular Dementias earliest signs 8 yrs ago had not robbed her of the ability to understand finances or face the reality of what was going wrong with her

 

[Tender Face]

I discovered TP by chance and wouldn't have thought of investigating the Alzheimer's website because I'd been told that Mum didn't have AD. Kayla

Dear Kayla, I found myself here some months ago when one of mum's consultants (urologist!) suggested Alzheimers ... when all others around started talking 'Cerebral Vascular disease', 'Lewy Bodies' but NOT dementia ...... , 'just (JUST!?) short-term memory loss',...... 'she is getting rather old' (74?!) ...... ....

It's great credit to the Society that TP exists for sufferers and carers faced with so many types of dementia - and in itself is some kind of injustice that this support - and this forum - is to some extent a 'hidden gem'....... for those of us faced with being here in the first place... and not all 'strictly' on AZ issues......

Much love, Karen, x

 

[Tender Face]

yet if they fall victim to Vascular Dementia or Alzheimers they are stripped of everything bar £12,000

The NHS is there for everyone irrespective of ability to pay or type of disease
Thats the law and that why care home fee charging is illegal

Can we PER-LEEAAASSE have a thread / Forum even devoted to political issues and associated 'funding'? (I guess the 'mods' answer will be 'no' and there will be valid reasons ....)

There are some here straining at the leash ........

This is not about being mercenary ... it's about injustice and discrimination ....... and until some start fighting it and are not 'hushed up' - who the hell else is gonna do it but some of the people on this forum who feel so passionate about the 'wrongs' because they are living /have lived them.....???? Doesn't mean everyone has to 'subscribe' of course.....

Just there are some wonderfully valid points and brilliant minds floating around this forum and this thread in particular that ought to be harnessed ...... and not purely about the finance but the moral (or rather immoral) discrimination behind it.....

K, x

 

[abby]

Here here Karen !!

I spent the last two nights / days reading up......and despite maybe not being the favoured position.....the way I see it ( and it has been grating me all day ! ) is......

My Dad and ' Mr Jones ' down the road are both 85

Both were in the services during the 2nd world war and have worked all their life.

Both paid their ' dues ' because they believed they and their spouses would be cared for by this country in their old age...

Dad also chose to save....and not touch his small investement. Which in turn allowed him to buy their first tiny flat when he left the Navy.

' Mr Jones ' didn't save

In advancing years...both developed AZ

Dad gets bugga all unless he pays the full wack for ANYTHING

Mr Jones gets full assistance

Did I mention that both had paid the same NI for over 50 years ? Opps yes I did....

Mr Jones WON'T have to lose his home to pay for his care

Dad will

This isn't aimed at ' Mr Jones ' - it's aimed at the injustice and the governments failing in not only it's commitment to those who gave us our liberty, all those years ago.......but even more recently...this governments ' pledge ' to our elderly to not have to sell their life's home to pay their care costs......
Agreeing with karen...I am not talking about the money...it's the total injustice to my Dad...he deserves better and has surely earned the right to better treatment / care

That'll teach my Dad to do what the government asked then...for people to be frugule and save........and pay their own way

Phew.......( now I really am in the ' do do's ' )

* dons tin hat, hides behind sofa and waits for backlash *

Abby
x

 

[Kayla]

I find the general lack of information and communication is the most frustrating thing with Mum's illnesses, and it is a great relief that now she is being cared for in a NH, by people who seem to know what they are doing. It is not the money which most annoys me, but the fact that there is no way to obtain help. even if you are willing to pay for it. An independent assessment of Mum's physical disabilities would have been really useful in the beginning, even if we had been charged.
Mum bought one of those mobility scooters after she gave up driving in 1999, but it was quite unsuitable for where we live. The narrow country lanes and high kerbs made the scooter difficult for her to use. The walk-in bath was also hard for her to operate with her painful hands and an independent advisor could have saved us thousands of pounds. I also feel that some sheltered accommodation may have been helpful, but this is unavailable in our area for owner occupiers.
A loan system for disability equipment would enable people to try out various aids and buy the ones which would most help them. The stair lift was really brilliant but why do these firms charge so much for their maintenance contracts?
The GP's surgery seemed to go out of its way to be unhelpful when booking appointments, and getting repeat prescriptions could be a nightmare. The medical profession seem to think that anyone with an elderly relative has all the time in the world to waste sitting in uncomfortable doctor's waiting rooms.
It does seem very wrong that it is left to charities and voluntary organisations to provide advice and helpful information about our relatives' medical conditions and I do wonder whether the professions are actually as well informed and trained as they ought to be. There needs to be far more public debate about how we can best look after the elderly and early onset dementia sufferers.
Kayla

 

[jenniferpa]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: the thing to be said about having savings is that it gives you choices. Now I'm not saying that "private" nursing homes are any better than "funded" nursing homes, because there is way too much variability (and no clear cut differentation anyway), not am I saying that it is fair that self-funders can end up paying more than funded residents in the same situation, BUT I am saying I would rather have every choice rather than just some, and that's what savings have meant to my mother. From what I have read on these boards (and heard from others) self-funding allows for more flexibility in placement than is available to funded patients. Now I could definitely get on board a campaign to to make care costs tax deductible, because it seems ridiculous to me that my mother is paying taxes on her pensions and savings, but what are savings for if not for a rainy day (and my goodness, the rain is torrential).

Jennifer

 

[jenniferpa]

Oh Kayla, I do so agree with you.

Having spent a considerable time on the phone today, I may (just may) have finally got my mother the comprehensive assessmnet she needs. However, social services will still only be involved on the periphery, because she's self-funded. What I really want is a crystal ball that will tell me exactly how long my mother will live, so I could say "right, I can spend £x over her pension every month". My fear is that if a throw too much money at the problem too quickly, 5 years, 10 years down the road she'll be out of money and at the tender mercies of the state. Something I would not want to do is get her settled somewhere and then have to move her at the age of 95!

Jennifer

 

[abby]

Kayla.... very valid points..

And I must just say, following my last post.....I don't dwell on it...this is, sadly, the way it is ( although I would like to see it addressed ) and spend whatever is necessary to ease Dad's day to day needs.........have bought bath lifts, had hand rails fitted everywhere......meals.....alarms fitted....anything.......everything

But my only beef.......is where are those that also promised...nay..he paid for the priveledge, to help look after him in his advancing / poorly years ?....

Abby
x

 

[jenniferpa]

Actually, in a way, I think this might be more of a problem for those people born later than my mother (1917). She was brought up in an age without the welfare state, and I honestly don't think she ever really believed the "cradle to the grave" rhetoric. Incidentally, Abby, have you looked into the services provided by the RN for ex-servicemen. I say men, becasue they do nothing for ex-servicewomen (i.e. my ex WRN mother) but they did seem to have some support for the male of the species.

Jennifer

 

[abby]

Jennifer...I also agree with you.......all I am suggesting is....

If all our parents did the same thing, paid the same money / dues, should they not all, across the board be given the same GOOD level of care.....that's all

It is possible and then, almost shameful, that ' Mr Jones ' may end up in a less than favourable establishment and Dad should be blessed with something better, potentially, just because of money. This generation have should all be bequithed the equal right to good care......

Yes yes yes I know I sound like I have done a 'U ' turn.. I haven't....just trying to show that money or not, savings or not, privatly funded or not, either way........our parents / partners should be entitled to a dignified, equal, respectful and cared for remaining years..........

Abby
x

 

[Kayla]

Dear Jennifer,
My Mum may have been better off in a Care Home earlier, but we were worried about how long her savings and money would last. Once they've been spent and the house has been sold, what do you do then? Mum is still only 81 and could well have five or ten years in the NH. What happens to her if she doesn't have enough to pay the NH fees? Would we be charged for them?
I do agree with you that NH fees should be tax deductible, as it does seem unfair that Mum is still having to pay so much income tax as well as her fees. We also had to replace the gas boiler in her house, because it didn't meet current standards and we wouldn't have got a landlord's certificate in 2007. Back boilers are now illegal apparently, so many people must be faced with big bills and possible disruption.
I guess it is not knowing what is likely to happen next which is difficult. Mum varies so much from day to day and small things set her back so far. I hope your Mum is being looked after well in the hospital and you are able to find out everything that you need to know.
Kayla