But for the Grace of God

[jimbo 111]

Very thought provoking !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...inds-love-new-lover-wife-fights-dementia.html


jimbo 111

 

[Onlyme]

How about these as new vows?

I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life as long as one of us doesn't get dementia.

What god has joined together let no man put asunder but please apply to CPN for additional clauses.

 

[Onlyme]

I know what i think about articles like this,but i'll keep it to myself...i don't want to get shouted at.

Not by me you won't. What is the point of the marriage service if it only applies in certain cases? As for a minister to be doing it... well.

 

[ooster22]

The article just about sums up this 'throw away society'. A vicar with a bit on the side trying to justify his actions - how unusual.

 

[Onlyme]

I am old fashioned and believe that we should live by morals.

If you can live your life without a care in the world or any consideration for those that love you then go ahead, I am sure that person is better off without you.

If you have any decency then have consideration and do not behave like a base animal. All I would ask is that the poor innocent should be told so they have the option of removing the person from their life.

 

[Memori]

I would have said no some time ago, but life's events have changed my mind, to give and receive love and friendship are wonderful things, this is not hurting his wife it may still hurt him and must be hard for his children, but we all have to make our own choices as his children will as they grow older, we are all on this planet together and must be open in many ways to others or it can be very lonely, I wish all three of them the best and I think they are God blessed.

 

[piedwarbler]

Dare I say, whenever I am feeling guilty for not visiting mum daily, because of my tiredness following cancer treatment, I might think of this man's decision, and forgive myself a little, because I find I can forgive him - especially as he said he is still visiting his wife and has not abandoned her. I cannot judge him, because that is not for me to do. He has to live with his decision and it must have been a hard one.
I did not realise at first that he is still visiting his wife. In a way he is trying to make the best of a very bad job. Maybe the sum of human suffering has been lessened a little through the decision he has taken. I don't know.

 

[Grannie G]

Very thought provoking !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...inds-love-new-lover-wife-fights-dementia.html


jimbo 111

It happens, and I don`t think anyone can judge unless they have been placed in the same position.

It is not for us to approve or disapprove, it is for us to refuse to rise to sensationalist press articles.

 

[Padraig]

Still learning

At present I'm finding it difficult to write my story simply because I'm trying to understand how people in general perceive love. For me love entered my life for the first time at around the age of 21. Most people will find that difficult to believe.

But when life began for me as a two year old in the cold comfort of the Irish Industrial School system there was no loving arm of comfort. Rather we learned to back away at the approach of an adult as it signaled some form of abuse. The word love was often mentioned by the Nuns, Christian Brothers and Priests: love they neighbor, the love of God etc, but none was shown to us stray children. As I knew no different, that world was normal to me. You don't miss what you never had.

When I discovered the beauty and wonder of love anything became possible. My wife changed me from an emotionally baron person. Her life and well being was more important than my own. Our bond was in sickness and health and still carries on after her death four years on the 12th Dec. I've been so very lucky to have found love.
It's a sad fact that religion is responsible for much hate and evil in the world. Love hurts but also heals.

 

[Tender Face]

I must confess, I have got much more ‘tolerant’ about this situation as years have passed. Other people’s lives, their decisions and their consciences to live with.

As someone previously divorced, I have no right to talk about breaking vows, although (as in Kassy’s case) and I believe my own there is a right for a civil ending to something which in the eyes of God, surely, and/or the law is simply unacceptable.

The one thing that bothers me hugely though is when these relationships start crossing boundaries. i.e. the new partner or companion is somehow ‘introduced’ to or becomes part of the life of the dementia sufferer. All well and good saying ‘They don’t know’ – ‘They have forgotten’ – truth is, no-one knows how much is still understood by the sufferers at any stage. End of life care suggests hearing is the last to go – and to be considerate about what might be said in front of someone who seems to have no ability to understand – but perhaps they do? It’s the idea that somehow the dementia sufferer might just, might just understand, or pick up on vibes and not be able to articulate their sorrow that worries me.

Karen, x

 

[Canadian Joanne]

Although this is a very emotional topic, I do think these situations have to be evaluated individually.

I know that three or so years after my mother was diagnosed and when I had moved her near me in Ontario, my stepfather and I had such a conversation. In a roundabout way, he let me know he was lonely and wanting a relationship. I let him know very definitely that he had my approval, which essentially is what he was asking for. My mother was no longer aware of him as her husband and I felt, and still feel, that having him lonely and unhappy to conform to public opinion was not right.

The man in this case is visiting his wife in the NH two or three times a week. He hasn't abandoned her, he is still caring for her. He was lonely to the point of suicide, he says. Had he committed suicide, he wouldn't still be caring for his wife. If he were not still caring, I would feel very differently about his situation.

Love catches us completely unawares sometimes. To find love again is a great gift and it should not be blocked out.

Although I am not a religious person, I have always loved these two sayings attributed to Jesus "Judge not, lest ye be judged" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

 

[CaPattinson]

'But what finally clinched it for me was when I was reading my Bible and suddenly, in the book of Genesis, I was reminded of how “It is not good for a man to be alone”.[/

Really?

And the purpose of this article is?

 

[uselessdaughter]

All I can say ....

is that if/when I am struck down with this awful disease I would hope my husband would do the same. The thought of him coming home to a lonely, empty house is such a terrible a thought. I would not want him to spend years of loneliness and isolation if it could be different for him. I love him too much to want that for him.

However I realise that we are all different.

Linda

 

[sussexsue]

is that if/when I am struck down with this awful disease I would hope my husband would do the same. The thought of him coming home to a lonely, empty house is such a terrible a thought. I would not want him to spend years of loneliness and isolation if it could be different for him. I love him too much to want that for him.

However I realise that we are all different.

Linda

Agree 100%. He sounds like a man who loves and cares for his wife and is lucky to have found someone to share his life with him during these last difficult months of mentally still caring for his wife.

As I am a non-believer, the vicar part is irrelevant to me.

 

[Skye]

I don't judge what this man does, if he squares it with his own conscience, that's what matters.

What did make me jump was his statement that he is still fulfilling his marriage vows. What about the 'cleave thee only unto her' bit?

Sorry, but hypocricy I can't abide.

 

[Jancis]

I think the retired vicar has been very lucky to meet a widow, who like him was looking for friendship. Telling his story to the world is a bit unbecoming however - I reckon he must be wracked with feelings of guilt. I think the article was trying to raise awareness about dementia?

While reading the story, my mind wandered off and I suddenly thought of Mr Rochester and Jane Eyre - this must have been a sensational story (albeit fiction) when published in 1847!!!!!! Mr Rochester asks Jane to marry him while still married to his wife. During the marriage ceremony it is proclaimed that he is already married to Bertha - this is a woman he has locked away in his attic after discovering she was descending into madness. Jane refused to be his mistress but he won her in the end although he had to lose his hand and his eyesight in atonement for his sins.

And the relevance of this is.........?

Sorry, just me musing as usual.

 

[Saffie]

O dear, and here was me thinking what a tolerant lot we are on TP!

I don't think anyone can honestly judge unless they have been in the same or similar position. A parent with Dementia is not the same as a partner - I have had both and it is very different. Both really hard, sad and despair inducing- but different.
Perhaps some should take a glance at the thread "Do you ever get used to living alone?"

This article was being discussed by Jeremy Vine on Radio2 when I was travelling to visit my husband in his nursing home. A lady phoned and she has met another man since her husband has been in a home. He developed Alzheimer's when in his 50s. She sounded kind, caring, rational and nice. She said her new partner is a temendous help and support to both to her and her husband. She also said that she would never contemplate divorcing her husband. As jimbo said when starting this thread - thought provoking!

It does seem to be the fact that this fellow is a vicar that has influenced some people, maybe rightly, but he is still a human being - and he is not solely responsible for his Church's ruling on second marriages beiong held in Church

I don't presume to know the right answer to all this. I cannot imagine wanting to share my life with any other man, but that is me and I am older. However, I don't think I can condemn someone who feels otherwise, even though I don't actually approve. We are all different and will respond to this in different ways just as we do to everything else.

I wonder what would happen if f a TP member felt differently about this and even acted differently. Would they still be welcome - or would they be drummed out! Just a thought - nothing personal!

 

[Jancis]

I totally agree with you Saffie.

By the way, I don't think the vicar should feel guilty - and I don't think he's condoning hypocrisy - I can only surmise he wants to raise awareness about the realities of having to cope with a partner with end stage dementia - perhaps to appease his unease. Yes, very, very thought provoking.

Thanks Jimbo, I love discussions like this, we don't have enough on TP.

Edited to add:
Sorry Kassy my post crossed with yours. Don't keep quiet, your opinions are very interesting and valued by everyone.

 

[Tender Face]

I wonder what would happen if f a TP member felt differently about this and even acted differently. Would they still be welcome - or would they be drummed out! Just a thought - nothing personal!

Interesting comment, Saffie, our venerable ‘leader’ of yore on the forum (and often someone I disagreed with, I hasten to add - but always in a relatively civil way) – Brucie – a previous moderator, administrator, member with massive input to AS alongside his TP responsibilities and contributions was exactly in this position (except not a vicar unless there is something he never disclosed! ) Truth – I suspect he has been one of the advisors for the Coronation Street storyline encompassing this emotive topic (but maybe he’s too humble to admit it – or I may have it totally wrong – in which case Brucie – if you ever read this thread, forgive me) ...... He was one persuaded me to see things from another angle ..... and dearest Connie (RIP) one of the most respected members and moderators ever on this forum was wholeheartedly in support of his publicising his ‘Love for Two Women’ and broaching this very difficult topic. It was hugely debated years ago – and no doubt will continue to be here and elsewhere to kingdom come ..... forgive me, I don’t often ‘resurrect’ very old threads ........

http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?3934-My-love-for-two-women&highlight=love+women

I don’t think people are being judgemental. It is very emotive and every one has a right to their own personal views and indeed beliefs about the situation, religious or otherwise and whether they are in the situation now or dare or daren’t consider how they might feel should they be in it themselves at any point - whether as a partner or someone concerned for their parent or anyone else?

I think we also have to respect that airing these issues may cause ‘triggers’ for some people who are hugely opposed on religious or any other grounds to certain scenarios and be there to support them too?

Karen, x

 

[Saffie]

I didn't say he was solely responsible for churches rulings on 2nd marriages.

I just meant that it wasn't his fault that second marriages taking place in church were not permitted - though I believe that ruling has been relaxed now too


I think if he had kept it to himself then that would have been hypocritical but he didn't. Whether he is right about or not, he is at least open about it It's strange but the chaps in the US who said that they condoned this action were also men of the cloth.

Makes you think. What a ripple that pebble you threw in the pond is causing Jimbo!