Has anyone used the safeguarding process?
- Thread starter bunnies
- Start date
Hello Bunnies, I am sorry I have no experience of this at all but thought it might be helpful for you to contact the AS helpline on Monday or your local CAB.
My one question really is why do you think your brother wants keys, so that he can move in? remove items? Is your aunt in permanent care?
I am sorry I can't help you, I hope you get some advice very soon.
My one question really is why do you think your brother wants keys, so that he can move in? remove items? Is your aunt in permanent care?
I am sorry I can't help you, I hope you get some advice very soon.
Hi,
I don't have any experience of the OPG's safeguarding procedures. Have you looked at the OPG's site? This document may help:
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/docs/sva-policy1-12081.pdf
It seems there has to be some form of abuse, and the definition of abuse includes financial abuse. I'm not sure that what you describe is abuse, rather a disagreement between you and your brother as to what is in your aunt's best interests.
I think you may have to make a formal application to the court to ask the court to make a ruling as to whether the property should be sold.
I would ring the helpline again.
I don't have any experience of the OPG's safeguarding procedures. Have you looked at the OPG's site? This document may help:
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/docs/sva-policy1-12081.pdf
It seems there has to be some form of abuse, and the definition of abuse includes financial abuse. I'm not sure that what you describe is abuse, rather a disagreement between you and your brother as to what is in your aunt's best interests.
I think you may have to make a formal application to the court to ask the court to make a ruling as to whether the property should be sold.
I would ring the helpline again.
Hi Sue
Yes I have looked at that part of the website - I can see what the official process is, but I was wondering how it would be experienced by the people involved, which is why I posted here in case anyone had had the experience and could share it with me.
Bunnies
Yes I have looked at that part of the website - I can see what the official process is, but I was wondering how it would be experienced by the people involved, which is why I posted here in case anyone had had the experience and could share it with me.
Bunnies
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Whose best interests?
Your attorney brother's logic isn't logical. He seems to want to keep the house for the benefit of his brother, why else make such a ridiculous excuse for not proceeding with sale? Perhaps you need to confront him about this. He is dealing with conflicting interests and it is understandable that his brother might come first in his priorities rather than his relatively wealthy aunt. However, as you have identified, as attorney he is legally required to put her interests first. You are right to seek professional guidance in this matter. I wish you all the best with your endeavours.
You are absolutely right, you have your aunt's best interests at the forefront of your thinking. Forgive me, but it seems that your brothers are more concerned with her assets and estate, thinking that since she doesn't need the house it can be of use to them. Perhaps one of them could buy the house, then they can use it as much as they like. If your non-attorney brother is able to borrow keys from the neighbour he could still get keys cut himself, but at present he seems to be respecting the authority of the attorneys in this matter. I assume he isn't using these weekend breaks to do household repairs, do the garden, visit his aunt etc.?
Your attorney brother's logic isn't logical. He seems to want to keep the house for the benefit of his brother, why else make such a ridiculous excuse for not proceeding with sale? Perhaps you need to confront him about this. He is dealing with conflicting interests and it is understandable that his brother might come first in his priorities rather than his relatively wealthy aunt. However, as you have identified, as attorney he is legally required to put her interests first. You are right to seek professional guidance in this matter. I wish you all the best with your endeavours.
One thing I would be concerned about, and I'm not sure if it's paranoia on my part or just caution, is the possibility that in the event of a dispute between two attorneys, the OPG might not simply appoint a deputy to handle the whole thing. You might be OK with that and you might not, but it's something to bear in mind. It was a recent thread (this one in fact http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?t=31662) that brought this to mind I think.
Katrine, thankyou for your comments - It's been quite a relief to share this. I have held back on writing about it because I feel it's a problem focussing on the 'wrong' things - the important things, after all, is my aunt, and she is blissfully unaware of all of this. But we all know that the stress of that spills over into other problems, and together it's an anxiety soup.
Thanks also Jennifer, for the warning about the possibility of a deputy. I shall read the link.
bunnies
Thanks also Jennifer, for the warning about the possibility of a deputy. I shall read the link.
bunnies
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Hi Bunnies, Jennifer has made a good point here. Where there is disagreement within families about the patient's best interests the OPG will almost definitely consider referring the problem to the Court of Protection and if this is the case they will appoint a Panel Deputy to take over administration of property and affairs. Something similar happened in my case and an independent solicitor was appointed. I was relieved about this as it took the burden of responsibility off my shoulders. The first thing they did was change all the locks on the property for insurance purposes as too many people had had keys in the past and were known to be using the property as a weekend retreat! This was classified as financial abuse.
A blessing in disguise?
Hi Bunnies, that set of keys is the one thing stopping your brothers from excluding you completely from your aunt's home and estate. It is horrible to have to admit to greed and callousness from close relatives, and I think it is particularly painful if they are siblings. You are not alone. My mother's professional carers tell me tales of families who expect the carer and client to live on a housekeeping budget of £30 a week (that's just over £2 each per day for food and household supplies). Some children who live down the road never visit or phone their parents. Many relatives refuse to do any repairs or to replace household items because it will diminish the estate. These relatives have come to see the old person's money and possessions as their own, and they are just waiting like circling vultures for the 'impediment' to be removed.
You know that you are acting out of love and duty. Don't shy away from that old fashioned word; a sense of duty keeps us doing the right thing even when we are tired or can't be bothered. It is a word that is used in the legal language of attorneyship and executorship, and appears to be something in which your brothers are lacking. So sorry to have to say that, but you have already recognised it anyway. Perhaps it would be better for the whole thing to be taken out of the hands of the current attorneys.
When you seek advice on this you will also need to ask whether replacing the POA will affect your attorney brother's future executorship of your aunt's Will. The other brother's executorship would remain unaffected. Since they seem so keen to jump the gun over her property, this issue also needs to be addressed. Executorship doesn't mean helping yourself before the person dies, or getting first dibs on all their best stuff. An executor only steps into action after the person has died. As far as I know (and I have looked into this for my own personal reasons) you cannot challenge the suitability of an executor until after the death of the testator, but you need to be forearmed so that you can put an immediate challenge in when the time comes.
I am assuming that your aunt no longer has the capacity to change her attorneyship or her will? My brother managed to get both of these changed behind my back and there's nothing I can do now because my mother lacks mental capacity. It causes me lots of problems because I am the one who deals with the care and most of the finances, but her solicitor says nothing can now be done without going through very expensive legal channels. The solicitor says this would probably result in the solicitor taking over as attorney to manage my mother's affairs, with me having to write and ask permission for every household purchase, and sending her detailed accounts and receipts for everything which she would charge us a fortune to scrutinise. Your situation is different because your aunt isn't living at home, so her 'costs' are simpler. It might be a blessing in disguise.
Hi Bunnies, that set of keys is the one thing stopping your brothers from excluding you completely from your aunt's home and estate. It is horrible to have to admit to greed and callousness from close relatives, and I think it is particularly painful if they are siblings. You are not alone. My mother's professional carers tell me tales of families who expect the carer and client to live on a housekeeping budget of £30 a week (that's just over £2 each per day for food and household supplies). Some children who live down the road never visit or phone their parents. Many relatives refuse to do any repairs or to replace household items because it will diminish the estate. These relatives have come to see the old person's money and possessions as their own, and they are just waiting like circling vultures for the 'impediment' to be removed.
You know that you are acting out of love and duty. Don't shy away from that old fashioned word; a sense of duty keeps us doing the right thing even when we are tired or can't be bothered. It is a word that is used in the legal language of attorneyship and executorship, and appears to be something in which your brothers are lacking. So sorry to have to say that, but you have already recognised it anyway. Perhaps it would be better for the whole thing to be taken out of the hands of the current attorneys.
When you seek advice on this you will also need to ask whether replacing the POA will affect your attorney brother's future executorship of your aunt's Will. The other brother's executorship would remain unaffected. Since they seem so keen to jump the gun over her property, this issue also needs to be addressed. Executorship doesn't mean helping yourself before the person dies, or getting first dibs on all their best stuff. An executor only steps into action after the person has died. As far as I know (and I have looked into this for my own personal reasons) you cannot challenge the suitability of an executor until after the death of the testator, but you need to be forearmed so that you can put an immediate challenge in when the time comes.
I am assuming that your aunt no longer has the capacity to change her attorneyship or her will? My brother managed to get both of these changed behind my back and there's nothing I can do now because my mother lacks mental capacity. It causes me lots of problems because I am the one who deals with the care and most of the finances, but her solicitor says nothing can now be done without going through very expensive legal channels. The solicitor says this would probably result in the solicitor taking over as attorney to manage my mother's affairs, with me having to write and ask permission for every household purchase, and sending her detailed accounts and receipts for everything which she would charge us a fortune to scrutinise. Your situation is different because your aunt isn't living at home, so her 'costs' are simpler. It might be a blessing in disguise.
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Stay strong
B has already done a recce of what's in the house. As you have indicated, this is none of his business, but he and A are working together on this. Your original post stated that the house was empty, but it would appear that it is unoccupied, not empty, and your aunt's effects and the house itself are vulnerable to theft from outsiders as well as from relatives.
It would appear to be in your aunt's best interests to clear the house of possessions and put these into secure storage. If it's just a matter of low value furniture and household goods then you might be able to agree between you to sell these. Even low value household effects would sell for a few hundred pounds, so this money should be returned to her estate. Since you mentioned jewellery I wonder whether there may be other valuable items, in which case anyone wanting to take these should pay for them following independent valuation, and add the funds to her estate. I don't think you can trust your brothers to do this.
As attorney you should certainly insist that B provides an inventory and valuation of the jewellery and proof that he has insured these and has them in a secure place, e.g. bank deposit box. Perhaps if he realises that he has taken over responsibility for insuring the jewellery he might return it to you!
Hang on to those keys and seek legal advice. We're all rooting for you. I know you can do without this distraction when you want to concentrate on your aunt. Equally if you let A and B push you out you will always feel you let her down, so you must stand firm. It really isn't about you getting your share, it's about doing the right thing. Get as much help and support, legal and emotional, as you can. It is hard to stay strong, but it's amazing how much strength you can get from being supported on TP. It keeps me motivated. I hope it does the same for you. Katrine xx
I have been puzzling over this. Did brother A (attorney brother) say "I can't sell the house because you won't give brother B (non attorney brother) the keys"? There is a logic here. The house would need to be cleared before it could be sold and generally it is easier to market a house if it has been emptied and cleaned since the previous occupants effects are likely to be offputting to buyers, unless they want to buy to let and plan to keep the furniture.
B has already done a recce of what's in the house. As you have indicated, this is none of his business, but he and A are working together on this. Your original post stated that the house was empty, but it would appear that it is unoccupied, not empty, and your aunt's effects and the house itself are vulnerable to theft from outsiders as well as from relatives.
It would appear to be in your aunt's best interests to clear the house of possessions and put these into secure storage. If it's just a matter of low value furniture and household goods then you might be able to agree between you to sell these. Even low value household effects would sell for a few hundred pounds, so this money should be returned to her estate. Since you mentioned jewellery I wonder whether there may be other valuable items, in which case anyone wanting to take these should pay for them following independent valuation, and add the funds to her estate. I don't think you can trust your brothers to do this.
As attorney you should certainly insist that B provides an inventory and valuation of the jewellery and proof that he has insured these and has them in a secure place, e.g. bank deposit box. Perhaps if he realises that he has taken over responsibility for insuring the jewellery he might return it to you!
Hang on to those keys and seek legal advice. We're all rooting for you. I know you can do without this distraction when you want to concentrate on your aunt. Equally if you let A and B push you out you will always feel you let her down, so you must stand firm. It really isn't about you getting your share, it's about doing the right thing. Get as much help and support, legal and emotional, as you can. It is hard to stay strong, but it's amazing how much strength you can get from being supported on TP. It keeps me motivated. I hope it does the same for you. Katrine xx
Katrine - lots of useful thoughts there, and it sounds like you have had a plateful of family to deal with. It sounds appalling to me that you are managing your mother's care and finances, but your brother has power of attorney. Does he have it alone? And to have arranged these things behind your back - that is bad, really bad.
It's a mess really. The reason I haven't worried about leaving things in the house is because they aren't of much value - I think the 'rogues and villains' did a good job a few years ago. There are a couple of items of value still though. The brothers are not after valuable items in the house (or if they are they will be disappointed) - they are after control.
It is hard - I don't want to fight losing battles, waste energy on battles that aren't important, but as you expressed so well Katrine, that is exactly how I feel - that somehow letting them take over in this way would not be respectful of my aunt, who never trusted brother B at all, and who personally asked me to look after her things.
Thanks Katrine, for your warm support.
bunnies
It's a mess really. The reason I haven't worried about leaving things in the house is because they aren't of much value - I think the 'rogues and villains' did a good job a few years ago. There are a couple of items of value still though. The brothers are not after valuable items in the house (or if they are they will be disappointed) - they are after control.
It is hard - I don't want to fight losing battles, waste energy on battles that aren't important, but as you expressed so well Katrine, that is exactly how I feel - that somehow letting them take over in this way would not be respectful of my aunt, who never trusted brother B at all, and who personally asked me to look after her things.
Thanks Katrine, for your warm support.
bunnies
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Might it be an option to rent out the house, if you do not need the capital to pay for your aunt's care?
This might get around the keys issue, since your brother clearly could not have use of the house for weekends if it was rented out to tenants. And it could bring in an income which could either contribute to your aunt's care, or in due course would increase her estate. With interest rates as they are, this might well be more than you could get by just investing the proceeds of the house sale in a savings account.
However you would probably still need to clear the house first, so would still have that hurdle to get over.
I left my dad's flat empty for almost a year after he went into a care home, for similar reasons - that he might need things from it; that it felt disloyal to "get rid of" his furniture and other possessions; or (though logically I knew this would not happen) that he might need to go back to live there. When I accepted that this was not going to happen, I did bring myself to clear it and rent it out, and this brought in a useful income to help towards his care costs.
This might get around the keys issue, since your brother clearly could not have use of the house for weekends if it was rented out to tenants. And it could bring in an income which could either contribute to your aunt's care, or in due course would increase her estate. With interest rates as they are, this might well be more than you could get by just investing the proceeds of the house sale in a savings account.
However you would probably still need to clear the house first, so would still have that hurdle to get over.
I left my dad's flat empty for almost a year after he went into a care home, for similar reasons - that he might need things from it; that it felt disloyal to "get rid of" his furniture and other possessions; or (though logically I knew this would not happen) that he might need to go back to live there. When I accepted that this was not going to happen, I did bring myself to clear it and rent it out, and this brought in a useful income to help towards his care costs.
