I have to go to court!

[Otto]

Good morning,
I found this forum and I'm hoping there is someone who can help me. I have to attend a hearing at the Court of Protection and wondered if anyone has had this experience? I'm trying to help my sister who has dementia and apparently lacks mental capacity. I've heard all sorts of negative things about the COP and I'm very concerned about what will happen. I feel like a criminal for speaking up for her.
All the best, Otto.

 

[carolsea]

Hi Otto
Welcome to the board, as I see this is your first post.
I haven't any experience of going to court, so can't help you there other than to say they will have the best interests of your sister in mind, just as you have.
Don't worry, I'm sure somebody will be along with advice for you soon.There are some great people on here!
Carol
x

 

[RAMONJKD]

Hello there,

Have you actually been asked to attend court? or is it mentioned in the correspondence?

We had to go the COP route as by the time we had even considered the financial aspects etc my mum was unable to grant power of atourney. We applied for my Stepdad to become a deputy and the court hearing was carried out and COP granted without us being there. We included a letter from mums doctor who explained fully that she would be unable to discuss or understand what was going on...

 

[Otto]

It's a very long and sorry story. Yes I do have to attend. I've spent far too much on legal fees already and have decided to represent myself. I promised my sister who is only 65 that I would do everything possible to avoid her going into a home. She can afford to pay for 24hr care in her own home but social workers etc. say that because of where she lives, live-in care will be difficult to find and also she is very difficult herself sometimes. They won't listen to my sister who is very clear that she wishes to remain in her own home. Also for many reasons her property isn't ideal and would need some upgrading in terms of facilities. I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle.

 

[jenniferpa]

Well I haven't done it but I think when you go you need to focus on certain things which I hope is true: that she has more than enough money to do this for the forseeable future, that you are willing (as I assume you are) to provide her with whatever support she needs, that you have a plan for overcoming the difficulties. I'm sorry if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but I do sometimes find that with all the stress involved in situations like this, people may take an emotional rather than practical approach. Completely understandable I think, but not necessarily what the court want to hear.

 

[Necion]

Hi Otto, welcome to TP. You've probably thought of most of the following suggestions, but just incase there's anything of help, here goes....

First of all...relax....you are not a criminal, though I understand your feelings.
The court building is simply the official place where such matters are dealt with, it's only bricks & mortar!
The court officials are only human beings like yourself, your sister and all of us you are speaking to at TP. Look beyond the gowns & wigs....if they wear wigs....they are just human beings doing a job. (Imagine them all as students at uni, having a drunken weekend and dressed in pink - less daunting, but don't laugh!!)

Make sure you have everything possible written down, in what you think would be the right order - in big enough print to make it easy to refer to. 2 or 3 topics per page with enough blank space between so you can write notes/coments of what has been said, and feel free to ask questions about anything which has been said by others if you need to.
Don't worry about having loads of sheets of notes/questions in a folder or something, if you show you have prepared your case they will be more aware that you mean business!
I suggest you make sure you have a spare pen, also a red and green, so you can easily make notes or highlight any issues you need to address in the positive/negative, just makes it easier to refer to if you've got a topic ticked in green or crossed in red, less likely to miss something out if you meant to go back to clarify.

Put your case calmly, confidently, take a pause where you need to, e.g. when you are asked a question, to make sure you can deliver your information with accuracy and at a speed they will be able to follow, like I say, they're only human!

Your integrity and proof of ability to organise what is best for your sister will be very important, the c.o.p is there to act for your sisters' best interests after all, so make sure you have the right solutions already planned out.

You know the full situation, but if it should happen that your sister has to go into a care home, don't feel you've let her down, you will have done your best. Sometimes it's difficult to see the bigger picture when so closely involved.

Good luck when the time comes, your courage and determination is admirable, it's hard to accept that there are times what we want to fix is just unfixable.

Please let us know how you get on.
Love, Necion. x

 

[Otto]

Thank you all so much for replying. It's a relief to know I am doing the right thing.

Jenniferpa, you are right in detecting that i do feel strongly emotional about this.

Necion, thank you kindly for your tips and advice. I'll feel I have let my sister down badly if the court decide against us. They must have dealt with this kind of problem many times and I assume they'll simply follow the letter of the law. I could probably muster up some more money to have expert representation. But would this make a difference to my case?

Thank you also Carolsea and Ramondkjd, I wish I had found you all many months ago.

 

[sistermillicent]

I have done some work with someone who was going through this but havent been through it myself. As I understand it there are two types of COP hearing, one is financial and the other is care based. The person concerned was not aware of this and all sorts of complications ensued as it turned out she was fighting the wrong one, she wanted to be a deputy for the care of her mum, but was actually going for financial control.

It does not take much into account other than factual convenient truths.

 

[Otto]

Hello Millicent,
Thank you for your reply which i greatly appreciate. I tried to apply to be deputy for welfare for my sister but this was rejected because i "didn't provide enough particulars". My application was through a solicitor and i now realise the firm had little or no experience with the COP. The present case has been brought to the COP by the local authority not by me.

 

[Sandy]

Hi Otto,

Welcome to TP from me also.

Has the local authority held any kind of Best Interests meeting regrading your sister and if so, have you and she been involved in that process?

Can I just ask, despite your desire to uphold your sister's wishes and how emotional this whole thing can be, have you ever had a look at the alternatives that some nursing/care homes might be able to provide?

It's just that if you had a best case alternative in mind, it might take just a bit of pressure out of the court process.

I say this having had, over the past four years, looked at a number of homes for first my father-in-law and then my mother-in-law. I just wanted to reassure you that, while it might take some looking (and some younger people with demetria can have more complex needs), there are very good and even excellent homes out there which might offer more of a sense of community and companionship than an in-home care package - but it all depends on the person's needs.

Take care,

 

[Otto]

Is there no-one out there?

Good to meet you Sandy,
Thank you for your ideas and thoughts - I do appreciate your expert advice.
I've been to several best interest meetings and I'm afraid I've made myself unpopular. On one occasion I lost it completely and made some stupid accusations. The meetings are all minuted and I think i lost my credibility after that.

I have only looked at 5 homes and didn't like any of them I'm afraid. Perhaps I turn after my sister in this respect. The smell of urine was all pervading and the staff that I saw (not many) appeared to me stressed, sloppy, condescending, brusque. I am sure there are exceptional places with qualified and genuinely dedicated and compassionate staff but how do I find them? I've looked at all the websites offering information but without visiting and spending time at these places, how can you really tell what they're like? And I would imagine the few special places will be full-up too!!

I know I haven't handled this whole thing well. I didn't understand the enemy and so attacked in the wrong way. So many lessons to be learned. I expect I face another one at the COP soon. Is there no-one on this forum who has had to appear at the Court of Protection? If I am the first then I feel like a rarity which is disconcerting. But perhaps people don't like to talk about this or perhaps they can't because the COP is allegedly a "secret court".

Meanwhile my sister is unaware of the decisions waiting to be made for her future and it is shattering to think what it beholds.

 

[jenniferpa]

You know, in all the time I have been on this forum I can count on one hand the number of people who have indicated they have had to go to the court, and of those maybe only one or two others have been in a even slightly similar situation to you, and I don't think any of them are currently posting. Most people have had to apply to the court simply because there was no existing valid power of attorney. So I don't think it's a conspiracy, simply that not many people have to do it.

 

[sistermillicent]

I had no idea it was unusual go to to the court, the person I knew found it all very difficult . She lost. She had had advice about what solicitor to choose from Age Concern, though it turned out the solicitor gave her bad advice and did not go with her to the court, which WOULD have been helpful even though everyone is told it isn't.

It was an upsetting process for her.

She threatened to sue the solicitor incidentally as he charged her thousands for this, and he reduced his fee to about five hundred pounds.

 

[Otto]

I too have spent thousands of pounds which is why i have decided to represent myself. I have been told the LA will probably have a barrister so i am going to be as factual and straightforward as I can and try not be fazed by it all.

 

[Margaret W]

Otto, I am sorry you are going through this, and feel so afraid. I too have no experience of the COP, though I did once accompany my daughter to an industrial tribunal, and the whole experience was totally comfortable. The proceedings were clearly explained to us, and whilst it was very formal (she could only speak when spoken to!) the panel were very "ordinary" people. I trust your experience will be the same.

I'm just reading your thread, and you say your sister "apparently" lacks mental capacity. Do you agree with that? Who has said so?

And then you say that she is "very clear that she wishes to remain in her own home". So that doesn't smack of someone lacking mental capacity. Yes, it might mean she doesn't appreciate the availability of appropriate support for her - but it doesn't mean she doesn't know what's best for her.

Have you made enquiries about what 24-hour support might be available? In what way is where she lives a problem? Out of the way? Not on public transport routes? Those things can be overcome with taxis. Extra cost, okay.

Does she actually need 24-hour support? Could she go to a day centre some days? Is it mainly night support that she needs? You see, I "put" my mum in a care home because of her night wandering. Social Services told me there was no alternative. I've sinced learnt that there were several alternatives I could have looked into, and I've regretted not doing so.

For your sister, you could have a live-in carer to see to her from, say, 6 p.m. to 8 a.m. This carer could then go off to his/her day job (depending on how difficult your sister is in the night), and a second carer could fill in the 8 a.m to 6 p.m. slot, and if your sister is able to go to a day centre this carer could have breaks in the day.

This is what I should have investigated for my mum - and by heck, I reckon I could have done it.

Good luck. Let us know when your case is, and please let us know how you get on.

Best wishes

Margaret

 

[FifiMo]

Otto

Have you looked into whether you can arrange for a volunteer advocate to go to court with you to support you and your sister perhaps? Speak to the Alzheimers Society and Age UK about this as the service is usually supplied by a group of volunteers, so there will be no cost to you.

Danny on here mentioned this before so maybe she has more details of how it works, or perhaps someone else has used them?

Best of luck and from researching a lot recently about COP for my own purposes, the COP will recognise that you are working with the best of intentions to support your Sister. Also, don't be too concerned about the Local Authority taking this to the COP because, from what I have read, in some circumstances they are required by law to refer matters to the COP to seek the courts guidance on how matters should be dealt with. The reason they do this is to ensure that any action they take can't be construed as depriving your sister of her liberty. In your sister's case for example if your sister insists she wishes to remain in her own home, the Local Authority may be seeking guidance as to what powers they may or may not have in the future to move her, say, to a care home against her wishes if they think it is for her own safety or security etc.

Hope this helps,

Fiona

 

[Otto]

Thank you FifiMo,
I have been looking into the advocacy service today and have made contact with SEAP. Hopefully I will receive a phone call tomorrow. I had no idea that there was such a service.

Your assurances about the LA make me feel a lot better. I understand about how the establishment has to cover its back so as not to appear to be breaking the law or acting incorrectly.

Thank you MargaretW,
To answer your question, I don't necessarily agree that my sister lacks mental capacity as claimed by her doctors. She is lacking at times but very lucid at other times.

S is so frightened that any suggestions for changes in her life are met with tears and tantrums. I think she could cope with staying in her own home with full time carers but she lives in a small village in a very remote area. I am looking at agencies who might be able to offer her full time care at the moment. But she is going to need lots of work done on her cottage to make it suitable for carers to live-in. I am beginning to think it is an impossible situation. She does have a friend watching out for her at the moment but the friend isn't well and appears to me to be quite unstable.

Thank you all for your interest and for helping with this.