My uncle will die of despair if his property is sold!

[Jancis]

I've just read Serena's Blog about her having to pack up the contents of her family home as it will have to be sold to pay for her mother's nursing home fees and though I am not in her situation it touched me greatly.

Anyone reading this will have to read my previous threads to understand but my uncle has recently been appointed a Panel Deputy (independent solicitor) by the Court of Protection to manage his property and affairs. I was relieved about this decision. I thought my uncle was one of the lucky ones, he is quite a wealthy man and can afford his own private nursing care without selling his property. But I learned today that in his circumstances the property will still need to be sold - reason: the continuing expenses and responsibilities of maintaining an unoccupied property. Apparently these costs can be very high and in light of the fact that my uncle is very unlikely to ever be able to look after himself again it would seem to be the most sensible way forward. Legal reasoning, not mine.

I have explained to the deputy that if asked, my uncle will not agree to his property being sold, and if he were to be told otherwise he would lose the will to live. Despite being deemed as lacking in mental capacity to make decisions about his affairs he is totally aware of his home and possessions - they mean everything to him. I know some people with dementia forget their recent past and think they are still living in the house they had decades ago, but this does not apply to my uncle, at least not at this stage in his illness.

Surely the deputy will understand and will not look at this as a purely financial decision? I do hope so but my own solicitor has warned me that if I question or challenge the authority of the deputy then it may affect our relationship with him. Oh my god. What have I now got to deal with? It may turn out OK but I am very very concerned that my uncle is being subsumed by things he is powerless to fight against. I've done everything I can do to help him but to no avail it would seem.

I am not looking for sympathy or help. I just think I need to speak up for my uncle in what seems to me to be a crazy predicament and wondered what others on this forum think about this. Should I write to the newspapers or am I being unrealistic in my expectations?

 

[ella24]

Should I write to the newspapers or am I being unrealistic in my expectations?

To be honest, I think you are being unrealistic. I am not being uncaring, just pragmatic, so I apologise if I am a bit blunt.

If you look upon the property as a cash asset, and not a home - that has no other ties to anyone else (ie no-one else needs to live in it) then, yes, those assets need to be realised (and the house sold).

Yes, it's brutal, yes it seems uncaring /unfair etc, but bluntly, how else will his fees be paid? Your uncle made 'provision for his old age' - and this is now where his investment pays back. It gives him choices that a LA/NHS funded person would not have.

The solicitor acting as deputy/POA has to act in your uncles interests, and get the best price - and you can monitor and support that.

The issue of whether your uncle is told about the house sale is another issue. The deputy/POA can legally sell the property without recourse to your uncle, as (I assume) he has been deemed incapable of making those sort of decisions.

Sorry, what I've written isnt about whether I beleive that the system is right or wrong, it's about being practical.

I dont know if you have been down the continuing healthcare route (where fees are funded by the NHS due to level of need?), claimed all necessary benefits etc, this can help minimise the impact financially.

 

[Jo1958]

Jancis, hello
I'm sorry you are in this situation and hope that it works out well for your uncle and the family as well as yourself.
I'd be concerned about the contents of the house, has your uncle made a will? Are there items of furnture, etc. that are family items and need to be distributed? If so it might be caring to speak to your uncle about this in a roundabout way if necessary to make sure that his wishes are followed. You wouldn't want him being thanked for things he doesn't know have been handed on.
Just a thought.
Best wishes, Jo

 

[leslin48]

hi, my mum is going in a home on Monday, and my heart is breaking, this will be a terrible thing for you to hear, but i wish it was her funeral i was going to.
she owns her own house, i thought when the time came i would be so upset about having to sell her house to pay for her care, but at the momemnt i dont care about her house or contents,the goverment can have the lot as long as my mum is cared for.
I might feel differant in a few weeks time when things have settled down.hope everything turns out ok for uncle, my thoughts are with you and him xxxx keep your chin up.

 

[FifiMo]

Jancis

If your uncle has money as you say and you know how important his home is to him - can his money not be used first and foremost to pay for care in his own home? Only at the point that his disposible assets are used up then residential care could be considered and the house sold at that time?

Don't know all the background but on the face of it the deputy, in what they are proposing, seems to be taking the right actions to protect your uncle's interests. They are right about not leaving a property empty - my uncle's property lay empty for ages after he died due to a family dispute and during that time squatters moved in - house wasn't insured because it was lying empty - and when it eventually sold it was only worth half its original value. So you can see why the deputy is acting the way he is.


Fiona

 

[Jancis]

Hello Ella,
Thanks for volunteering very practical and forthright advice.
Wow, I am now beginning to wish I had not broached this one - for fear of being misunderstood.
Maybe I haven't expressed myself very well? This is not about an elderly person who is likely to suffer in any way through lack of ability to self fund the best possible care. My uncle is emotionally tied to his house by a life long investment with his wife (now deceased). He loves it and everything within, and wants to return to it (he still thinks he will be able to do this!). He doesn't need to sell it to pay for his care now or even in the longer term (he may have 5 years left in him or 6 months or less or more- it's impossible to know but the prognosis is very bad.
Oh dear I am not getting through very well.

Hello Jo,
I hate to have to justify my motivation but I am not interested in inheriting the house or its contents. My uncle has always wished to leave this to his two godsons and has made a will accordingly - he had no children of his own so they were like sons to him.

Hello Leslin48, I understand your post and completely agree with you about care being more important than material wealth.

To conclude this post:-

If it happens, perhaps my uncle will not be told that his house will have to be sold? Then I guess we will have to lie to him when he asks about it?

It may not have to happen at all - its early days yet, we are only just embarking on this new dilemma. One thing is for sure, if I had been appointed my uncle's deputy I would not have sold anything until it was necessary to do so.

Perhaps this is too unusual and complex an issue for this forum. I know my situation is not common place but that's way I came here trying to seek answers to unfathomable questions I suppose. It's a brilliant place don't get me wrong. It's just so hard to express things in words, without the emotions and sad or smiley icons don't seem to help me.

Jancis

 

[Tender Face]

reason: the continuing expenses and responsibilities of maintaining an unoccupied property. Apparently these costs can be very high and in light of the fact that my uncle is very unlikely to ever be able to look after himself again it would seem to be the most sensible way forward. Legal reasoning, not mine.

Hello Jancis. Sorry, I never got into this ‘realm’ with my mother – but as she was absolute ‘border-line’ for self-funding when the time came, I know the anxiety of starting to ‘pack up’ and being prepared to try selling her property (minor detail it was her home for 40+ years) ..... and how on earth she would ever cope with the ‘knowing’ had it come to that .... never mind having to think of a ‘give-away’ price in the then and current climate .....

I have no knowledge on the ins and outs of deputyships etc but from a ‘layman’ point of view I don’t understand the logic here? Why can’t the property be rented out (perhaps on short-term leases) with income being generated from the rental which would more than cover costs, any management expenses and keep contributing to your uncle’s ‘pot’ to assist his care? In other words, maximising his assets (for him) rather than taking away probably his best investment? (Not to mention the 'emotional cost' to him - perhaps he could be persuaded 'tenants' were looking after it for him if indeed he ever needed to know anything?)

My mother’s property was empty for over 12 months – yes, there were a few haggles about insurance and what it covered and a few bills we picked up ourselves ..... but I feel rather alarmed at this proposal?

I may be missing something?

Just thoughts,
Regards, Karen

 

[MJW]

Hi Jancis,

On the practical front, an empty house is a huge responsibility (aside from bills and maintenance, what about squatters, burglars, broken pipes etc?). My parents' home is standing empty and I am too far away to keep a regular eye on it, and can't sell it yet as I don't have the necessary authority. Fortunately it is in a quiet village but I do worry about what could happen.

If your uncle has left the house in his will, perhaps you (or the legal reprsentative) could ask the beneficiaries whether they actually want to inherit the house? If they don't want it - as distinct from the value of the house, which is a different thing - it would seem to make more sense to sell it, which is what the beneficiaries would do anyway if they don't plan to live there. If the beneficiaries do have an emotional attachment to the house, then perhaps a tenancy agreement would work, so that the propery is not left empty and the lawyers are obtaining benefit from it on behalf of your father (which is what they are legally obliged to try to do).

From what you say, I don't think your uncle would like the thought of his home standing empty and quietly deteriorating: it would be better to sell it and have another couple or family enjoy it as he and his wife did.

Anyway, I wish you all the best with this.

 

[Jancis]

Thank you to everyone who has attempted to get their head around this one. Whatever will be will be as regard to what happens and I realise that the lawyers have a job to do and a responsibility to fulfil.

I keep worrying about my uncle's best interests and what that really means in his particular case. He hates being in the NH and wants to go back home to his cottage. He cannot look after himself and because of his severe mental health problem his care team have agreed that it is not practical to have 24/7 care at home. And he has said that he doesn't want that either - he says it will be just as bad as being in the NH. He has been taken to visit his cottage once (by his SW, an OT and a carer from the home). It was very nearly a disaster - he insisted on going upstairs to the loo and then wouldn't come down again, he became very angry and threatening and sat on the bed and wouldn't move. It took the OT about an hour and a half to reason with him and persuade him he had to go back to the NH. We had warned them that he would probably behave in this way as we were aware that he is totally committed to fighting for what he believes is his liberty. He has been diagnosed with FTD and has been sectioned twice in the last 18 months. He has no interest in life in the NH, is confused about the time of day and cannot remember anyone who visits him and yet he is fully in capacity with regard to his determination to be able to return to his home. It represents his life and is full of memories which for a person with the terrible disease must be all they have to hold onto.

I am beginning to ramble. I just think that he would get some peace of mind if he were able to visit his home maybe once every couple of weeks. If I am wrong and it makes him too upset and unmangeable then fair enough, but at least we can say we were on his side and tried our best to help him. He says he is willing to consider this compromise which again gives me hope that he may recover a little from his depression and regain his will to live.

Does anyone agree with me? Maybe I am beginning to lose the plot.
Jancis.

 

[scarletpauline]

I'm sorry I can't offer you any advice, but I understand exactly what you mean about your uncle, I hope sincerely you can get round it somehow, love Pauline xx

 

[Canadian Joanne]

Jancis,
Based on your uncle's behaviour when he did visit his home, I don't think taking him for visits every couple of weeks is a good idea nor will it give him peace of mind.

I do think the idea of renting the house out has merit. The income would certainly pay all expenses, with presumably extra to add to your uncle's income. Ask the deputy about that possibility.

I have a question - why was a non-family member appointed as deputy? Does no one live close enough?

 

[Jancis]

More on the background to my story

Hi Joanne,
Mine is a very unusual and complicated story. You can read more about it on my thread posted 30/6/10 "Long Distance Carer". Posts made on and after 1/7/10 are relevant to your question.
I think you will probably question how it can be true or if I am perhaps losing my own sanity!

I think if you knew my uncle you would understand where I am coming from - he is a wonderful, kind and creative man and has suffered tragic losses in recent years. Many people who know him have said it is no wonder he is so ill.
Thank you for your interest, all the best, Jancis

 

[Tender Face]

Hi Jancis. I may be oversimplyfing things. But I can’t see why the house should be sold if the proceeds aren’t needed to pay for care and your uncle has the assets to cover his care costs and maintaining the property. The property is an asset to be maintained? Or would anyone really sell up in the current recession and put the proceeds in some account earning next to no interest? From a financial point of view unless it HAD to be sold to fund care (or unless maintenance costs were really extortionate) I am failing to see how it is in your uncle’s best interests to sell at this moment in time? At the minute it seems to be meeting an ‘emotional need’ and there is no price on that.

Just one idea .... could you make an album (a bit like a memory book, I suppose) with lots of pictures of the house for your uncle to treasure at the NH? A bit like Mohammed and the mountain, I suppose – if he is unable to visit, then bring the home to him?

Regards, Karen

 

[Jancis]

Hi Karen,
I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. It is a very small and humble abode actually and so maintenance shouldn't be that costly.

I really do feel that his cottage is very much part of him, it's like a computer USB dongle, he can plug back into it and access its archive.

He has to live in an unfamiliar place now - whether he likes it or not but why rub salt into the wound by depriving him of the things he loves most dearly. Surely this is deprivation of liberty?

Thank you for suggesting the idea of making a photo album - will get cracking on that this weekend.

 

[serena]

Jancis

My heart goes out to you with your Uncle's complex predicament and the equally complex emotions which are stirred up by it.

I certainly have no answers but do hope all can be resolved to the benefit of all concerned very soon. This must be such a worry for you.

I'll share my story, just in case it helps you/others on TP. Apologies in advance if seems too long or rambling.

I think my upset at the sale of the family home this week, was probably attributable to a period of strain, following my 'living in' with Dad in the last months of his palliative care for Liver Cancer.

I confess that I did find myself crying in the street after collecting the last personal items and handing over the keys to the new owner. What a state to be in heh?!!

Dad had cared for Mum (in 11th year of AD) for 10 years as sole carer at home, with weekly respite. My role has been in support of Dad as my sister lives hundreds of miles away and cannot be 'hands on'. Dad really was one of the unsung heroes for the fantastic job he did looking after my Mum until this no longer possible.

The house was the family home for 52 years which is unusual these days, so we now have no family centre. Ultimately, I see my reaction as sentimental and I cannot afford to think this way, as I have had to be hard-nosed about practicalities of obtaining best care for Mum.

I sold the house at Auction (an unusual property/in need of much renovation). This was relatively quick and painless. Investors being the only people with any money to spend in the economic climate it seems!

Funds from the sale are needed together with Dad's prudent savings to pay for Mum's residential care in the Care Home over the road at £42K a year. I work with an Enduring Power of Attorney to administer Mum's financial affairs, as she was the sole recipient of Dad's Estate in his will. This was set up at the time of Mum's AD diagnosis.

Mum's short term memory is poor, sometimes retaining things for only a few minutes but long term memory is good. In many ways she is sharp as a tack. She was very clear that she did not wish to stay in her house with a live-in carer. She did not want me to look after her myself, she felt this would ruin my life. She did not want the house rented out with me needing to act as landlord, especially as it has an extensive garden needing much attention . She wanted the social contact of others in a home.

Mum has been very philosophical - she feels losing the house is heart-breaking but not as heartbreaking as losing her husband.
She knew that she had to go into a home for the best professional care as her condition worsens.

We are very fortunate to we have an excellent care home on our doorstep, which Mum tried in 'respite mode' in Dad's last months prior to becoming permanent in May this year. I am convinced this is the best we can afford in our area, and we have experienced some shockers.

I am pleased to say that Mum is happily settled in her care home where she has plenty of stimulation and social contact, long may this continue....until our pot of money runs out, or falls below £23K local authority funding threshold.

Mum can still see her old home from her new one, which helps map her memories and minimises her transition to a new way of life. Also the new owner of her house is caring for her garden, so perhaps things have worked out for the best. Maybe we are very blessed?

Many thanks for listening.

Sending a virtual hug for you

Love and Light, Serena

 

[Jancis]

Thank you for sharing your story Serena. Your sound a genuinely serene person. I am so glad you have gotten over your sadness and although you described it in your blog as the end of an era it would appear you are very bravely beginning a new one. You are lucky to have such a wonderful family.

My family is wonderful too. I wish my uncle was not separated from us by so many miles. He is really very alone despite having many friends - they are all scattered far and wide. Even his dog is "in care" and separated from him. I am hoping and praying for good news now after months of problems and worry.

Much love and light to you and your mum, Jancis.

 

[serena]

Jancis

Thank you for your reply and kind comments. I am very lucky indeed to have such a wonderful family. I am glad you have a great family too and wish you all the best.

It is sad your Uncle is geographically distant and for him to be separated from his dog must be awful for him too.

I'll keep everything crossed that things are resolved really soon.

Love and Light, Serena