Power of Attorney re Post Office

[SusanB]

Hi folks

LONG POST!!

Another question, if I may, about Power of Attorney.

Mum (VAD) agreed to an Enduring Power of Attorney early Sep 07, signed paperwork etc etc. My brother in law in myself are POAs and we registered all the paperwork with the Court of Protection in May this year, letting relevant bodies know (Post Office re pension, banks, utilities etc). So far so good - a few glitches but mostly OK.

Right. THE POST OFFICE re Mum's pension. Long story - I'll try to cut it down.
My bro-in-law is dealing with Mum's pension and wrote to the PO (and called them) re the POA. A certified copy of the POA was sent and was acknowledged. OK, I love him dearly (bro in law, that is) but he's a bloke (lack of attention to detail - apologies, but that's my experience). The letter apparently said that changes on the account could only be made by the account holder and the Attorneys. The account holder? Bells ringing. He didn't notice this.

R. changed the address to his re statements etc. "The law" was/is that Mum would be copied in on the letter.

A poorly worded Change of Address letter was sent to R. confirming so-called change. But...was also sent to Mum, as mentioned. Guess what? Mum thought that she would have to sell her home (mmmm. Did I mention she has dementia?) so called them to say that it was wrong. This was DESPITE the POA being registered and them having a certified copy. They dealt with her directly and followed her wishes, changing the address details back to her. I knew nothing of this and neither did R. They didn't bother to tell us.

Previous to this, they had acknowledged the Power of Attorney to R.

Anyway...a few weeks further on (two days ago). A statement was sent directly to Mum (see above). A phone call at 7.45am two days ago - "I've just had a bank statement and I've got no money". It took 20 mins and a visit face to face to calm her down.

Phone call to PO. A CS rep told me confidently that a registered POA "does not necessarily mean" that they wouldn't deal directly with the customer. You know what I said: "Madam (ooh get me) you're WRONG. Please get your Manager to call me" Nothing I said seemed to make a difference to her.

Call to the Office of Protection. "No, the PO are wrong, they should not under any circumstances be dealing with your mother directly, given that they have a registered POA".

The Manager didn't call. I called again.

Conversation with, believe it or not, the Complaints Manager at the Post Office. Nice chap, very understanding but I had a strange and sneaking suspicion that he just didn't get it.

It would appear that the POA only shows up on the customer account history on their computer systems and that was why Mum's so-calleld "wishes" had been adhered to. He even cheerfully went on to tell me that his department had many conversations with patients suffering from Alzheimers, explaining in a jolly way how his team dealt with them. I was so gob-smacked I forgot to ask just how many of these customers had relatives who had registered a Power of Attorney.

Their sytems don't flag POA. As a "test case" and, I felt, a special facour to me(falls over in amazement), if Mum calls this week, either as a response to the Change of Address letter or anything else, they will pass the call him personally. Don't call during lunchtime, Mum. After that, any further calls will be automatically forwarded to his team, who will be aware of the situation and who will not make any changes on the accouhnt.

Do I have a legal case here? The Court of Protection tells me that I do.

Why is the POST OFFICE having issues with Power of Attorney? Training Issue? Process problem? Ignorance? Arrogance?

Am I just plain and simple wrong?

Does POA (enduring) NOT give you total autonomy over a vulnerable person's legal and financial affairs?

Susan

 

[Countryboy]

reply to susan

Susan
Hi Susan I don’t get it either are you saying that you can’t use the Power of Attorney because both my Son & Daughter have the authorised Power of Attorney on both me & my wife which has been if force for 5 years however both of us still carry on with our personal affairs ect

 

[jenniferpa]

The difference to Susan's situtation and yours, Tony is that yours has not been registered with the Court of Protection. In that case it simply acts just like a regular power of attorney in that both the donor (you) and the attorney can manage your financial affairs. However, once the power is registered (and it MUST be registered when the person starts to lose capability) then the financial institutions are not supposed to deal directly with the donor (unless a specific arrangement has been made). The whole point of registering a POA is to protect the donor from 1) stress and 2) financial abuse and 3) doing something with their money which is fiscally irresponsible, which they would not have done in the past.

Susan - I don't know what to say to you. I think you are dealing with a bunch of idiots who have no idea what they are supposed to do. The COP have indicated that what the PO have done is wrong, and they're the people who know. Actually you say the post office, but are we not talking about the pension service? Or are we talking about the banking side of the Post office? Anyway, there will be a complaint procedure for whoever it is and I would start putting the wheels into motion over this. And by complaints you may have to go as far as the ombudsman. I do so hope you have the name of the "complaints manager" since he needs a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, frankly. Sorry - but this sort of thing makes me so irate because it really isn't complicated, at least in the situation you find yourself in: you have a registered power of attorney, they have a certified copy of it. Now they should only be dealing with the attorneys - no one else. Is this so hard to understand?

Grrr

 

[SusanB]

Hi there

yes, we're talking about a registered POA regarding Mum's pension so I'm glad to know that I'm not being a bit unhinged...that's Mum's job. Ok, that's a bad joke.

Anyone know the ombudsman for the Post office regarding pensions?

I will also submit a complaint in writing. I have the name of the Complaints Manager but would also like to take it higher.

Susan

 

[JPG1]

Hi Susan

Sadly, you have to go through the PO's tortuous complaints procedure before you can go to the Ombudsman. When (if??) the PO respond to your complaint, they should send you details of the next stage, if you are not happy with whatever they throw back at you in Round One.

Then, once you've jumped through that next hoop, you can go to the Ombudsman level, if you're still unhappy with the next load of bull that has come to you from PO.

How long have you got??

When you say you want the Ombudsman regarding pensions: I presume you mean that your Mum's pension is paid into the PO? Yes? Same Ombudsman:

Have a look at this link, and at the bottom (if you've still got enough energy to scroll down!), it gives details of Financial Ombudsman Service:

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/portal/po/content2?catId=20000202&mediaId=3100051



.

 

[jenniferpa]

I assume you've seen this

http://www.postoffice.co.uk/portal/po/content2?catId=20000202&mediaId=3100051

I believe what happens is you go though the stages and at the end of each stage you're told how to complain higher up the food chain.

According to the website they are also supposed to adhere to the British Bankers code of conduct., so you might want to have a look at this http://www.bba.org.uk/content/1/c6/01/04/41/mental_capacity_leaflet_2007.pdf which all about banking with diminished mental capacity. However, it may have been superceded now.

 

[SusanB]

Wow, thanks, Jennifer

What a star you are. I will take this further.

Susan
x

 

[jenniferpa]

Here's another possible source of information

http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/can_the_ombudsman_help_you/pathway/who_can_we_look_at.html#p

You'll note they have a help line number.

Or this

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/

Edited to add

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/52/powers-of-attorney.htm

 

[NewKid]

Absolute idiots - give it to 'em

Go for it - and try and educate those time-wasting 'jobs' worth' idiots the hard way. So annoying, when there are so many stresses already involved with handling people's affairs and their illness.

 

[sussexsue]

No suggestions, just a lot of empathy, especially as AD sufferers do seem to worry about money a lot.

When we had registered the enduring POA for my mum, and were getting all her financial affairs/pensions, etc. in order we were lectured by a very arrogant 14 year old Bank Call-centre operative (he couldnt have been any older and apologies to all helpful ones) that just because we had Registered POA that didnt mean we had any control over my mother's finances. Biting tongue and asking what it did mean, he replied that we could accompany her to a branch and be allowed to sit in on the conversation with her. Most of them really havent got a clue.

It will always make me mad that these faceless operatives have more control over my mum's affairs than us, her family, who look after her.

In the name of security a lot of solid impentrable brick walls have been built in the last few years.

 

[sumosumo]

hiya susan

This looks longwinded and complicated but I get the jist. From what you say, it would appear to me that this is a training issue. My, my have I had similar situations!! Banks, financial institutions the lot!!

Looks like TP has offered you loads of great advice once again. But also, as usual, all very time consuming. If I were you I would make an appointment with AgeConcern; tell them everything and they may be able to sort on your behalf. Get the investigation delegated to someone who can sort it on your behalf.

You just don't need this twaddle do you

Keep us posted (no pun intended) on what happens.

PS: my mother never really got what "poa" was; thought I was trying to get her to re-write her will. NOTHING is easy

 

[Clive]

Hi Susan

Just want to say that I understand what you are going through. As you will be aware it is not you that is the problem. Many of us have had similar concerns.

I found that each financial institution managed to do something wrong with the EPA… it was as if the employees had all been on a training course but fallen asleep at a different point in their training. It was amazing how many variations of wrong practice they could find to inflict on their customer.

I am now at the final stage, and I am trying to establish how much savings mum had, plus interest due and tax paid at date of death. Eight weeks on and I have still not completed this simple task.

Simple arithmetic seems to be beyond bank staff these days.

Mum had £100 invested in an account for 4 months at 3% before she died. After chasing the bank for an answer several times I received a statement, which gave the interest due as £90. After speaking to 7 separate people, who could not see that this had to be the wrong answer, I was told by the supervisor to “write in if YOU have got a problem.”

The manager of the local branch sorted out that one for me… but it took him 24 hours (and three phone calls from him to me to apologise and ask for more time) before a correct figure was available.

Just don’t let it get you down.

Best wishes

Clive