Help me please!

[susie2uk]

Hello
I have just joined here and am hoping someone can help me, i have been going around in circles for months.
My mother in law was put into a home last October by the Social services, she has dementia and delusions. She is 83 and she was put into the care home by the social services last October which she didnt want, they took her there and left her, they told the home she had no family. She has a husband who is also in a care home and 1 month after they put her into a care home they put a charge on the house for his care.He didnt choose to live in the home he is in, he was put in there for respite and then social services say he "Chose " to live there. He has late stages of Vascular Dementia he is 86.
Social Services have now applied to put a charge on the house for mum's care fees. She has been deprived of her liberty since last October and there does not seem to be any paper work at the home. The social services have clammed up and wont even answer my solicitors letters. I have been going around in circles for months now and what ever I do no one seems to know how to stop the charge for my mum in law. The charge for dad was done after he had been in the care home for 8.The social services said he had no family.
I have wriiten to the land registry saying the charge is not valdi as mum has never agreed to being in the home and advised them that dad could not make that decision.
They are not receiving the best care either and they are paying about £850-00 a month each.....
If there is anyone who can help please let me know.
thank you
Susie

 

[Vonny]

Hi Susie, and a warm welcome to Talking Point, although I'm sorry that circumstances have made it necessary.

I'm no expert in this area but I think that SS are able to do as they are doing. If your mum had been sectioned then I think it would have been a different matter.

I'm quite happy to be corrected on this and I will do some research and get back to you. Also others may come along with better advice, but I will post again when I've found out more if not.

Vonny xx

 

[Vonny]

Hi again,

I haven't been able to find too much but the following link may be useful.

http://www.counselandcare.org.uk/helping-you/frequentlyaskedquestions/

I also suggest phoning the Alzheimer's Society helpline on 0845 300 0336 and/or the Age Concern helpline on 0800 00 99 66.

If I can find out anything else I will post and there may be others along soon who have more suggestions.

Vonny xx

 

[Margaret W]

Hi Susie

Well, I am always alarmed by the financing of care, and have written many letters to my MP, with no reasonable response, but am sad to say it is probably correct that now both parents are in care homes there will be a charge put on the house. If only one of them were in a care home, the financial situation might be different.

I would be more concerned that you have not been properly advised of this by Social Services - you should request a meeting to discuss the financing of their care, and be made aware of the options available to you. I am assuming that they had a home which is now empty but not yet sold?

I would also be concerned that they have both been recorded as having no family - they clearly have a loving daughter in law.

If either of them were put into care under a Section, then no fees should be payable (I am not expert on Sectioning, perhaps someone else will advise). Despite you saying that MIL and FIL did not agree to their respective Homes, presumably someone signed the contract to say they would pay the fees? And even if no-one did, it is likely that they would still have to pay as "Self-funding" residents.

It is a Big Issue, Susie, and most unfair, but at the end of the day you are likely to find that the care fees have to be paid out of their assets.

And no, with two parents in a home, the money won't last long. Another Big Issue.

Sorry if that is bad news, and I am no expert, but it is my feeling that you will have to pay for them both.

Investigate Continuing Care Funding, which will reduced the fees considerably if successful. There must be a link on this website somewhere, but I am not good on such things.

Best wishes

Margaret

 

[Vonny]

A useful thread on continuing care can be found here:

http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?t=15569

 

[TyJane]

I agree with you Margaret, your advice is spot on.

I would add that a person or a representative of any person in care is entitled to ask for a reassessment of their needs at any time, and this should be done at regular intervals to ensure the full amount of free NHS care that might be needed is being provided for.

This assessment should take place before any financial assessment is made of their ability to pay for their care. Everyone is entitled to an assessment no matter how much money you have, this is usually conducted by a social worker, do they have one?

If the council have arranged their care, there should be a copy of a care plan, which should set out results of their needs assessment and any services to them and a review date.

Jane

 

[jenniferpa]

I do wonder whether "there are no relatives" is a consequence of the rules regarding "nearest relatives" under the Mental Health Act. A DIL, is not considered a relative under that act. Is their son no longer in the picture? If not, then the LA has to be named as the "nearest relative" under the terms of the act. See here http://www.mentalhealthshop.org/products/rethink_publications/nearest_relative_fac.html

I have to say, though, that even if this is what has happened, I do not believe that it was the intention that that rule (which really relates to sectioning) was intended to be, or should be, used in the sort of situation you describe.

 

[susie2uk]

I agree with you Margaret, your advice is spot on.

I would add that a person or a representative of any person in care is entitled to ask for a reassessment of their needs at any time, and this should be done at regular intervals to ensure the full amount of free NHS care that might be needed is being provided for.

This assessment should take place before any financial assessment is made of their ability to pay for their care. Everyone is entitled to an assessment no matter how much money you have, this is usually conducted by a social worker, do they have one?

If the council have arranged their care, there should be a copy of a care plan, which should set out results of their needs assessment and any services to them and a review date.

Jane

Hello

Thank you for your response. As far as we can find out NO PAPER WORK has been done at all for my mother in law....She does have a social worker, but she will not respond to any ivitations for a meeting. My mum in law has not been sectioned and the home dont seem to have any assesment papers and now they are not answering any questions.We went for a meeting about care plans, but no one turned up only us. The orininal social worker isnt on the case any more and the new social worker wont even reply to us.....My mother in law has been deprived of her liberty and charged for it!! And worse than that she isnt even being looked after properly.

thanks for your reply

susie

 

[susie2uk]

Hi Susie

Well, I am always alarmed by the financing of care, and have written many letters to my MP, with no reasonable response, but am sad to say it is probably correct that now both parents are in care homes there will be a charge put on the house. If only one of them were in a care home, the financial situation might be different.

I would be more concerned that you have not been properly advised of this by Social Services - you should request a meeting to discuss the financing of their care, and be made aware of the options available to you. I am assuming that they had a home which is now empty but not yet sold?

I would also be concerned that they have both been recorded as having no family - they clearly have a loving daughter in law.

If either of them were put into care under a Section, then no fees should be payable (I am not expert on Sectioning, perhaps someone else will advise). Despite you saying that MIL and FIL did not agree to their respective Homes, presumably someone signed the contract to say they would pay the fees? And even if no-one did, it is likely that they would still have to pay as "Self-funding" residents.

It is a Big Issue, Susie, and most unfair, but at the end of the day you are likely to find that the care fees have to be paid out of their assets.

And no, with two parents in a home, the money won't last long. Another Big Issue.

Sorry if that is bad news, and I am no expert, but it is my feeling that you will have to pay for them both.

Investigate Continuing Care Funding, which will reduced the fees considerably if successful. There must be a link on this website somewhere, but I am not good on such things.

Best wishes

Margaret

Hello

Thank you for your response.

Its a terrible affair no one will give us any information. There does not seem to be any paper work at the home for my mum in law. My husband there son is very upset by the whole affair and is not a well man and all this isnt helping him. I have done everything I can to find out what I can but keep cming up against a brick wall. The social services have become very guarded and wont speak to us at all. We just dont know what to do now... Mum in law is now being given anti depressants and she is becoming more and more dazed and has even stopped asking why they locked her up.... I know this is going to sound crazy but its like some sort of conspiracy with the home and soical services, if they have nothing to hide why wont anyone talk to us!!!!
regards

Susie

 

[susie2uk]

I do wonder whether "there are no relatives" is a consequence of the rules regarding "nearest relatives" under the Mental Health Act. A DIL, is not considered a relative under that act. Is their son no longer in the picture? If not, then the LA has to be named as the "nearest relative" under the terms of the act. See here http://www.mentalhealthshop.org/products/rethink_publications/nearest_relative_fac.html

I have to say, though, that even if this is what has happened, I do not believe that it was the intention that that rule (which really relates to sectioning) was intended to be, or should be, used in the sort of situation you describe.

Hello
thank you for your comments.

My husband there son is still in the picture so as to speak, but when we asked why were not contacted we got no answer. My husband is very uspet by the whole affair and to be honest we just dont know how to get answers. The charge for my father in law was put on the house a month after the put my MIL into the home against her will. The new charge for MIL they have applied to put on in july. We have objected to the charge, but have heard nothing. We cant get appoints with the home or the social services....I think what has happened they have lifted my mother in law so that they could charge for both parents. They are using the no relatives as an out?

Thanks again

Susie

 

[Vonny]

Hi Susie,

I suggested the Best of Interests meeting as a way of getting the SW to respond but clearly he/she is not responding to any meetings.

If your MIL hasn't been sectioned, there is no paperwork regarding an assessment and apparently no care plan there is something clearly not right.

In your place I would do the following:

1. write a formal letter of complaint detailing your concerns and address it to the director of your Social Services (if you can obtain his name so much the better),and stating that you will be contacting your MP

2. write to my MP encloing a copy of letter to SS director

3. apply for NHS funded continuing care for bothe MIL and FIL. I posted the link to the relevant thread in an earlier post.

4. write to MIL and FIL's GP enclosing copy of letter to SS

By engaging so many people there is a chance that fear my goad SS into action.

Good luck

Vonny xx

 

[JackieP]

Hi Susie

I am really sorry to hear about all the upset and stress you and your family are experiencing. I thought I would tell you about the procedure I have gone through with my mum recently and it may give you some ideas on who to contact ( I am not sure which part of the country you are in, I am in Wales so the 'laws' may differ). My mum was was diagnosed with VD in March after an assessment on an E.M.I. ward and I was told about this condition and the need for her to go into E.M.I. care. To pay for the cost of my mum's weekly care is made up of 3 elements: majority of her state pension, a nursing needs allowance (paid by the NHS) and a deferred charge currently paid by Social Services which I have agreed to pay back when I sell my mum's house. However in my situation the deferred charge on the property does not commence until afetr 12 weeks so in effect for the first 12 weeks my mum is in care she/we only pay her weekly pension contribution. If your mum in laws house is unoccupied then I beleive SS have a'right' to use this peoperty value etc to eventually pay for the care (deferred loan) but I believe your mum in law would be allowed to keep 10% of the house selling price. I beleive your mum in law should of had a detailed finanacial assessment carried out by SS whereby they clearly explain the charges and where they take into account any other savings, mitigating factors etc. I beleive that SS are obliged to contact the next family member as unfortunatley your mum in laws husband is unable to make decsions for her but unfortunatley I am no expert and can only speak from my own experience. My mum has reviews at her care facility by the local Health Authority to make sure she is receiving the best care for her and also regular visits form her GP. It may be worth you contacting such people and explaining any situations regarding the standard of care/health you may come across. I also used the Care Standards for Wales and the Department of Health in London to help me with the problems I encountered. Also, I found the local Mental Health Advocate a really useful source of information and also my local Help the Aged.

I am not sure if I have helped in anyway but please do not be afraid to challenge/question people/professionals and their decsions as I heave learnt with my own mum's expereince sometimes it is the only way.

I really hope things work out for you all.

Jackie

 

[jenniferpa]

Hello
thank you for your comments.

My husband there son is still in the picture so as to speak, but when we asked why were not contacted we got no answer. My husband is very uspet by the whole affair and to be honest we just dont know how to get answers. The charge for my father in law was put on the house a month after the put my MIL into the home against her will. The new charge for MIL they have applied to put on in july. We have objected to the charge, but have heard nothing. We cant get appoints with the home or the social services....I think what has happened they have lifted my mother in law so that they could charge for both parents. They are using the no relatives as an out?

Thanks again

Susie

Assuming your husband is in the UK then that blows my suggestion out of the water.

You say your MIL was taken to the care home against her will. How did that come about?

I have to say, whether there were no relatives or 20, the charge would have been forthcoming once your MIL was out of the marital property. That's the way the system works, and while you can argue the toss about how it has been done (very badly IMO) or whether she should have had the 12 week disregard, I think if you continue to focus on the property lien you may not have the energy to persue the real issue which to me appears to be over zealous social worker involvement. It is a mistake to believe that someone needs to have "agreed" to the lien - broadly if someone is in a care home and they own property (2 somebodies in the case) then the LA will put a lien on the property to ensure they are paid back from any proceeds. There are a whole bunch of sub clauses about what can be retained, capital limits etc, but that's it.

The rules (all of them) are contained within CRAG http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...tions/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_097578

 

[Margaret W]

Hi again Susie

Your head must be swimming by now, and panic setting in.

Let's try and clarify things (for my benefit if not yours).

Both parents are in care homes. You say mum-in-law has been put there without her consent. Why was that? Could she possibly have stayed at home with a care package put in place, or was that simply not on? Was it considered? Her closest relatives (presumably your husband and you, unless there is someone else who has power of attorney) should have been involved, and her care agreed before they "put her into a home". As she is now effectively self-funding (i.e paying for herself out of the capital of the home, even if that is not taken till later), you should have had a choice in the home that she has been allocated. Did that happen? I cannot see how any authority has the right to put a person in a particular care home without the agreement of those managing the money, unless she has been sectioned.

I wonder who signed the contract with the care home. Who agreed to pay the fees? If it was not you, I am tempted to say "send the bill on to them", but it won't work. It seems you are not happy with the placement anyway.

Oh, gee, what a situation you are in, I imagine you are stressed up to the eyeballs with it, and SHOULD NOT BE SO. My deceased dad supposedly had a shotgun, I never found it when he died, but if I ever do, I will bring it over to you. DON'T SHOOT YOURSELF.

Sorry, not intending to be flippant. I am rather at a loss as to how this has all happened.

The money is one issue, you will probably not get out of that, but the main issue is that you have not been informed. Social Services should have had a meeting with you, explained your choices and supported you in the choice of a care home, if needed, or other care plan if she could have remained in her own home. Could she have done so?

Well you have been treated appallingly and must complain, but at the end of the day, if both FIL and MIL have to be in care, that is the situation you have to face. I am not up to date as to what the rules are if both spouses are in care, but it is likely that you will have to pay their full fees until their assets drop down to £23,000. I don't know whether that is £23,000 each or between them. That includes the house, which if it is unsold will mean they put a charge on it, so when it IS sold, they get the outstanding monies. Only you can decide whether to sell it now, and pay the care home or let the debt accumulate. I believe that no interest is charged on the accumulating debt.

But in the meantime, you have an empty house that will need insuring and maintaining. You might decide to rent it out, so go into that if you wish. That will give your in-laws more money to go towards the fees. But they will probably have to pay tax on the income as well. They basically have you in a noose.

I hope you manage to sort out Social Services and get a proper plan in place.

Let us know how you get on.

Love

Margaret

 

[TyJane]

Hi Susie!

I agree with Vonny! There is something not quite right about the situation you are facing.

Have you registered your complaint?

Jane

 

[ishard]

Legally Susie if family havent signed the contract to pay the fees then they are not liable to pay them.

 

[Vonny]

It's not as simple as that unfortunately. It is MIL and FIL who will fund their own care and that will be achieved by putting a charge on their property. Susie and her husband won't be expected to pay.

If MIL could be cared for in her own home then SS wouldn't be able to nab it while she was still living there. I suspect this cloak and dagger approach is to avoid that so they can get their hands on the property.

 

[susie2uk]

Hi Susie,

I suggested the Best of Interests meeting as a way of getting the SW to respond but clearly he/she is not responding to any meetings.

If your MIL hasn't been sectioned, there is no paperwork regarding an assessment and apparently no care plan there is something clearly not right.

In your place I would do the following:

1. write a formal letter of complaint detailing your concerns and address it to the director of your Social Services (if you can obtain his name so much the better),and stating that you will be contacting your MP

2. write to my MP encloing a copy of letter to SS director

3. apply for NHS funded continuing care for bothe MIL and FIL. I posted the link to the relevant thread in an earlier post.

4. write to MIL and FIL's GP enclosing copy of letter to SS

By engaging so many people there is a chance that fear my goad SS into action.

Good luck

Vonny xx

Hello

Thank you for your help. It sounds like a good Idea and I will get on to it..There is definatley something not right and we beleive now from what we have read here that the SS lifted MIL so that they could charge for both MIL & FIL. My father in law was put into a home after his daughter said she could no longer meet his needs. They couldnt put a charge on the house for him until they got MIL out of the house. MY sister in law is an un dischrged bancrupt and the SS allowed her to take over his finances and him, she didnt have EPA they let her deal with him as then they didnt have to.... He had some £12.000.00 when she first took over looking after him he went into the home with nothing. The home was told he had no relatives.....The whole affair is so bad and so stressful.
Will keep you up to date on how I get on and thank you so much for your help....
regards susie

 

[susie2uk]

Legally Susie if family havent signed the contract to pay the fees then they are not liable to pay them.

Hello

No one seem to have done any paper work for MIL.....But i get a bill now each month from the SS for just over £400 for care fees....

It's almostunbeleivable that someone can be taken from there home and locked up against there will then charged for it!!!!

thanks for you help
susie

 

[susie2uk]

Assuming your husband is in the UK then that blows my suggestion out of the water.

You say your MIL was taken to the care home against her will. How did that come about?

I have to say, whether there were no relatives or 20, the charge would have been forthcoming once your MIL was out of the marital property. That's the way the system works, and while you can argue the toss about how it has been done (very badly IMO) or whether she should have had the 12 week disregard, I think if you continue to focus on the property lien you may not have the energy to persue the real issue which to me appears to be over zealous social worker involvement. It is a mistake to believe that someone needs to have "agreed" to the lien - broadly if someone is in a care home and they own property (2 somebodies in the case) then the LA will put a lien on the property to ensure they are paid back from any proceeds. There are a whole bunch of sub clauses about what can be retained, capital limits etc, but that's it.

The rules (all of them) are contained within CRAG http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...tions/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_097578

My mother in law was living alone as her husband left her. He went to live with his daughter after being in several residential homes. The daughter was/is an un discharged bancrupt without to or knowledge an EPA and the SS allowed her to take control of him and all his finances....
My MIL kept locking herself out of the house and was basically becoming annoying to the SS. The neighbour rang them when she had a bad fall and they told him to take her to the hospital. The door locks were changed several times and the SS billed her, they took control of her finances in april 2008 and then puther in a home in october 2008.
We have been asked to sign a care plan, which we refused to doas no one has guardianship, there seems to be NO paper work, the home say an assesment was done but have t produced a copy despite me asking ver and over.
It is possible we beleive that if ss had made more effort MIL would have been able to stay at home back then. they say they tried but she refused help.....
regards
susie