Third Party Top Up

[Margarita]

During my phone call with 'Our' SW this morning, she actually told me that I was mistaken! She told me that my husband would be able to 'sort of' claim the top up's back from his mother... sort of!!! I then pointed out that according to the Notts CC's own guidelines, this is not correct. I told her the page number I was reading from.... it went very quiet her end of the phone!

Good then

Phone up ask to talk to the manger of social service as you want to make a compliant about the way this Social worker is treating you .



Manger of Social services will know more then this SW .

The way the SW has Just told your husband to find care home, does not sound right .

 

[gemini]

Hi Chris

Your financial situation seems very similar to ours. I don't understand why you signed though? If it's going to be a struggle for you. This is exactly what I'm at odds to understand. Did you know the implications when you signed? Was it explained to you?

How can the govenment give us tax credits with one hand only to allow the county councils to take funds away from us with the other because a loved one needs to be 'Topped Up'?

Our finances have never been discussed. WHY? Why are we expected to make up the shortfall yet have never been given the opportunity to stress how overstretched our family budget already is.

I will not let them make me feel guilty because we are standing our ground and refusing to let them bully us into making payments that we simply can't afford.

This has the potential to cause genuine hardship for families! So why is it a practice that seems so widespread? How many people have been affected by this?

Best Regards
Gemini

 

[burfordthecat]

The way the SW has Just told your husband to find care home, does not sound right .

Hi Maggie

That is exactly what happened to me. My SW gave me a brochure and I was told to ring, visit and find a care home for dad. My SW did not give me any help to find anything.

Love Burfordthecat x x

 

[ChrisH]

Hi Gemini
Originally we would have been going down the 12 week disregard route with mum becoming self-funding once her property sold and the CC would be reimbursed. If I remember correctly I still would have had to pay the top up till then because of the different contract rates between the two counties. But the mobile home thing means she's no longer self-funding so they could basically do what they wanted as she was already in a place of safety, though one in which she would have deteriorated rapidly as most of the residents were much worse than her (according to the SW). I wanted her out of there as quickly as possible.

I probably panicked a bit when I agreed to the top-up because I really wanted mum in the home in my village. It's one I've known for about 6 years as I worked there as a cleaner while training as a chiropodist and now do the residents' feet. I know the staff and the residents and it's a good home with a long waiting list. The room mum has is lovely and I didn't want to loose it (hence we - i.e. mum - paid a reservation fee while we waited for her case to go to panel). I have to admit I didn't think I'd have to pay the room rent increase as well and if it goes up again next year then I will have to sell her place asap, (assuming I can get the wretched 'imperfect' LPA registered through the Court of Protection and the housing market improves drastically).

Mum's SW would have done the leg work and found me a choice of 2 homes within the contract price if I hadn't insisted on this one, but they could have been miles away as this is a big county. It's awful that others have just been handed brochures.


Chris

 

[ella24]

I would be really interested if Ella could advise how the subject was raised by her SW. Is it just our incompetant SW or is this a bigger issue?

Hiya

The top-ups were raised by the SW (but we'd done some reading too) and as we were moving cross-authority we thought it might be the case, but my gran also had an advocate from Age Concern (via SS but impartial) who also gave us a lot of information.

The SW has been the postbox for all our information. We thought at first that we had to pay our part to the home (and did - it's being refunded) but then found the financial contracts hadnt been sorted (the legal charge on the house for when it's sold still isnt sorted) .

Useful places we found were Age Concern and the direct.gov websites (and AS of course!)

Have you seen your MIL's financial assessment from her LA? Your SW should give you the name of the person in the LA finance team to discuss it with. Also, is MIL claiming her full entitlement to Attendance Allowance - the higher rate may mean you don't have to top up....

e

 

[ella24]

Our finances have never been discussed. WHY? Why are we expected to make up the shortfall yet have never been given the opportunity to stress how overstretched our family budget already is.

Actually, whether you were a millionaire or not, SS should not be discussing YOUR finances. They should be finding suitable care for your MIL, in consultation with you.

The top-up fees should only be agreed mutually, and are really only applicable if you and your husband wanted MIL in a specific home that was costing more than what the LA would pay, and were prepared to pay for the difference

e

 

[DianeB]

Hi again



It may sound ludricous but we dont know what the NHS did! We simply weren't told anything which in itself has been very upsetting. This whole procedure has been taken completley out of our hands. We felt as if we were on a runaway train driven by madmen, and yet, when the issue of finances are raised..... suddenly they want us in the driving seat!

Gemini

This is exactly what happened to us and yes at the QMC too!!! In fact they gave us 24 hrs to find Mum a home, and never having considered it before didn't even know where to start The meeting that was concerning funding we were told not to even bother attending as we woud have no say and it was just a plain boring meeting, so being naive I didn't go, how I wish we went. As for copies of any paper work , what paperwork we were not even given a discharge note!!! It was like being told Mum can't have the bed any longer we can't look after her, if you can't care for her find her a home but it had better be a nursing home, and yes we will get the nursing care component paid for ...which didn't happen until mid Dec with no back date. The only other offer of help was for a total of 2 hrs within a 24 hr period, which Mum needed 24/7 care. I swear they don't know what they are doing, it is bad enough having to deal with a loved one so poorly and in need of help without the attitude of the so called professionals.

 

[DianeB]

Burfordthecat I see you also are from the East Mids. We didn't even get the leaflet

 

[Margarita]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Margarita View Post
The way the SW has Just told your husband to find care home, does not sound right .
Hi Maggie

That is exactly what happened to me. My SW gave me a brochure and I was told to ring, visit and find a care home for dad. My SW did not give me any help to find anything.

Love Burfordthecat x x

Some social worker doesn’t tell you anything. I am trying to organize mum to go into nursing home I don’t know how the systems work, all she is asking me has mum got any Saving .It all has to go to a panel , while I am assuming that this panel is to do with funding . So when I rang her yesterday she tell me its not .

I thought back then when mum own her own properly I would have been able to walk into a care home ask if they have a vacancy put her in there while not selling her property, even if it was a care home that could not meet her challenging needs , dementia or not registered. I never new back them that her house would have to fund her care . I thought it was all pay by the NHS.

Time move on

Then when I find TP I slowly over the years lean about FFCC.
Now find out that mum needs an assessment on her care needs, to determining what type of care home she should go into it all goes to a panel.

Its terrible the way the symptoms work for people with Demetria and there carer

 

[MarkEdge]

Why are we expected to make up the shortfall yet have never been given the opportunity to stress how overstretched our family budget already is.
I will not let them make me feel guilty because we are standing our ground and refusing to let them bully us into making payments that we simply can't afford.
This has the potential to cause genuine hardship for families! So why is it a practice that seems so widespread? How many people have been affected by this?

Hi gemini

Not sure if you saw my post from yesterday, but has the NHS done a Continuing Care assessment as this could potentially mean that you don't have to pay anything! Had your MIL been in hospital before going into a home?

Please don't just assume that your MIL won't qualify for CHC or take the word of a SW that she wouldn't - the barrier is not as extreme as the NHS might like you to think it is.

Mark

 

[DianeB]

My Mum couldn't walk, talk, eat properly, express her needs, bath or wash herself, dress herself, she had had 5 strokes, 1 heart attack, 1 seizure, high blood pressure, high choesterol internal bleeding and Alzheimers double incontinent too they had to use the hoist to move Mum and still we couldn't get Continual Care. In fact we wer told they could be a possibilty if she had a couple of weeks to live as it was about 4 weeks after this (assesment) she died. Like I said before its a disgrace

 

[Bob S]

Hi Maggie

That is exactly what happened to me. My SW gave me a brochure and I was told to ring, visit and find a care home for dad. My SW did not give me any help to find anything.

Love Burfordthecat x x

This is exactly what social services tried to do when we were told that my father needed to go into an EMI nursing home. They told us this during a multi disciplinary meeting held to discuss my father's case and they handed us a list of homes in the area and said we needed to go and start looking.

At that point I asked them the following question :-

"So you're not going to do a full assessment to see if my father is eligible for fully funded NHS continuing care then?"

A long pause was followed by the clunking sound of a number of jaws hitting the floor in disbelief that such a question had been asked

It's a well oiled routine that they try on time after time. They know many people are not even aware of the role the NHS might have to play in long term care situations and they deliberately withhold the information, in my opinion.

 

[Bob S]

This is exactly what happened to us and yes at the QMC too!!! In fact they gave us 24 hrs to find Mum a home, and never having considered it before didn't even know where to start The meeting that was concerning funding we were told not to even bother attending as we woud have no say and it was just a plain boring meeting, so being naive I didn't go, how I wish we went. As for copies of any paper work , what paperwork we were not even given a discharge note!!! It was like being told Mum can't have the bed any longer we can't look after her, if you can't care for her find her a home but it had better be a nursing home, and yes we will get the nursing care component paid for ...which didn't happen until mid Dec with no back date. The only other offer of help was for a total of 2 hrs within a 24 hr period, which Mum needed 24/7 care. I swear they don't know what they are doing, it is bad enough having to deal with a loved one so poorly and in need of help without the attitude of the so called professionals.

That is appalling behaviour, not to mention a total disregard of the NHS's responsibilities under the Delayed Discharge (Continuing Care) Directions 2007. Here is a link to the directions:-

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Legislation/DH_078053

 

[Brucie]

The more I read the more I realise we were very fortunate.

As Jan's condition worsened at home, we contacted the Haslemere branch of Alzheimer's Society where there was a brilliant person with expertise in Young Onset Dementia, called Ronnie. [no longer there]

At Jan's last assessment stay at the hospital she was allowed to fall, and damaged herself so much that her condition worsened massively.

We had a multidisciplinary meeting [my GP was there because there were worries about what I might do, such was my distress] and the consultant simply said "you need to find a home for her at once. She is now bed-blocking"

I was angry [similar to when a small hand grenade was dropped on Nagasaki in 1945.....]

I did go and view some homes because I said at the time I would live in the car and happily give everything we owned to secure the best care for Jan. I wasn't planning on hanging around long without her. All the homes were around £35,000 a year, and none was EMI registered, so were not fit for our purpose.

I spoke to Ronnie at the Society and she immediately convened a meeting with the new consultant [I had the other thrown off the case] and had to tell her about Continuing Care. Fortunately Ronnie had a copy of the criteria and invited the consultant to go through it, point by point, to see if Jan met any of the criteria.

It was agreed she met 8 separate criteria.

There were no further multidisciplinary meetings. Jan was awarded NHS Continuing Care funding.

If nothing else, that is a debt I will always owe Alzheimer's Society - not the fact I didn't have to live in the car, but the home that Jan was moved to is one of the best I have seen anywhere.

 

[gemini]

Hi again

Mark; I don't know if a Continuing care assesment was carried out? I'll try and find out! If one wasn't carried out would it be too late now?

Ella; Thank you so much for your input. It does seem that our SW was particularly inept. However it also seems to be a case of finding info yourself rather than the SW volunteering all the appropriate advice!

Diane; What can I say! I wonder if we had the same SW. It's all truly disgraceful how the system works! (or doesn't... should I say)

Thanks to everyone for your support. The links will give me plenty to read up on!

I'm sticking to my guns as a matter of principle, but it saddens me to think how many people have been coerced into signing documents when they are at their most vunerable. If it was an unscrupulous trader they'd be exposed by Trading standards, but when it's the local council or inept SW's they can get away with it.

Best Regards
Gemini

 

[jenniferpa]

Gemini - it's never too late for a continuing care assessment. It's just easier to force the issue when someone is actually in hospital.

 

[MarkEdge]

It's never too late for a continuing care assessment. It's just easier to force the issue when someone is actually in hospital.

Hi jenniferpa

Spot on! If your relative is in hospital you have all the cards and they cannot lawfully discharge the person until they have followed the correct procedures.

gemini - have you actually signed a contract with the care home? If not, you are in a stronger position. If you have, as jennifer says, all is not lost by a long way. Find out the name of the Chief Executive of the PCT and the Continuing Care Lead of the PCT and complain immediately and demand a full CHC assessment.

Other recent comments from Brucie, Bob S and DianeB show just how inconsistently the NHS have implemented the National [sic] Framework! If they did, then probably about 90% of the issues would disappear. Sadly, there is no monitoring process at all in the NHS to police these PCTs.

All the best!

Mark

 

[MarkEdge]

. . . forgot to add that if someone is in a nursing home, the NHS must reassess them for CHC (even if they didn't qualify initially) after they've been there three months and annually thereafter (or if their needs change significantly).

Mark

 

[JPG1]

Hi again

If it was an unscrupulous trader they'd be exposed by Trading standards, but when it's the local council or inept SW's they can get away with it.

Best Regards
Gemini

Strangely enough, exactly the same thought crossed my mind as I watched 'Rogue Traders' the other evening!

.

 

[ElaineMaul]

Hi,
In a round about way, this sort of comes back to a question I asked a long time ago about assessment wards and their accountability .....

My Mum and I had been visiting various care homes ...... asking lots of questions ....... reading all the care home reports ..... and it occurred to me that if I applied the criteria in the reports to the assessment ward, they would be found severely lacking! I wondered why assessment wards weren't reviewed by an independent body??

Similarly, why aren't PCTs reviewed by some external body to see how well they comply with procedures?

Or are they??

Elaine