enduring power of attorney

Megski

Registered User
Dec 13, 2008
2
0
I am new to this website. My father in law has Louis Bodies Dementia, is sectioned and in a residential care home. He is fairly lucid most of the time, somehow has obtained a driving licence and wants me to give him money to buy a car, says he will sue me if I don't. I used to have a great relationship with him but now I feel upset and helpless. He lives overseas. If I try to register the power of attorney I'm afraid he'll fall out with us completely. Any guidance would be appreciated.
 
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jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Hi and welcome to Talking Point.

I really think you have to register that Enduring Power of Attorney. You are duty bound to do this when someone is losing capacity and I have to say, being sectioned seems to fit the bill. It is possible to register it without notifying him if a doctor (I think) is prepared to sign off on a form that says notifying him would cause undue distress. Further registering the EPA gives you a certain level of protection. Not that I think that someone who is sectioned would have a great deal of success pursuing a law suit.

Look here

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/decisions/being-attorney-epa.htm

Please try not to worry about his threats - it's extremely sad when this happens, but you're not the first person who this has happened to and you won't be the last.

P.S. My mother used to live in Sleaford!
 

Brucie

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
12,413
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near London
Hi Megski and welcome to Talking Point.

it seems to me that what you describe encompasses quite a few of the major challenges that dementia throws at us, and I think it is important to get things into some sense of order.

Firstly, he is sectioned, so I assume he is in a secure place? That he couldn't drive if he wanted to?

Does he really have a driving licence? How would he obtain one, given his situation? You need to know if this is the truth or whether he is simply believing it is the case.

Your husband is abroad, but what are his views on all of this - he is the direct relation, after all?

There is an Enduring Power of Attorney, but it has not been registered? Who is/are the nominated attorneys? Are you in any case in a position to register an EPA?

If you are the nominated attorney, it is not really a case of 'should I, shouldn't I' - legally "An Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA) must be registered when the Donor is or is becoming mentally incapable of handling their own affairs" see http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/registering-lpa-epa.htm

An EPA is protection for the person who is the subject, your father in law.

Perhaps the best thing would be to call the Alzheimer's Society Help Line and ask for advice there.http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents.php?categoryID=200273 they are open Monday to Friday

At present all the weight of responsibility seems to be on your shoulders.... you need help to spread the load.

best wishes
 

Megski

Registered User
Dec 13, 2008
2
0
Thank you both for your replies. My husband and I hold joint power of attorney and I will certainly speak to him now about registering it.
 

rose_of_york

Registered User
Mar 22, 2008
94
0
York
Hi and welcome to Talking Point.

I really think you have to register that Enduring Power of Attorney. You are duty bound to do this when someone is losing capacity and I have to say, being sectioned seems to fit the bill. It is possible to register it without notifying him if a doctor (I think) is prepared to sign off on a form that says notifying him would cause undue distress.

I am going through this process right now to register an EPA. Even if the doctor writes a letter saying that notifying the person would cause undue distress you cannot register it without going through the Court of Protection. The court fees are £400. Talk about exploiting the most vulnerable!
 

lesmisralbles

Account Closed
Nov 23, 2007
5,543
0
Hello megski

My father in law has Louis Bodies Dementia

Lewy Body Dementia ?
You do not say where you are from.
My husband has lewy body dementia.
Please could you give more information ?
Barb
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
I do understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure I would characterize it as exploiting the vulnerable. After all, if I was the donor I'd want the court to take every effort to ensure if I wasn't being notified that there was a good reason for that, or theoretically I could end up with my assets being stripped by someone who was unscrupulous. And that kind of due diligence costs money. Unfortunately even doctors "might" be coerced or bribed into signing - they are people after all.

JMO
 

rose_of_york

Registered User
Mar 22, 2008
94
0
York
I do understand where you're coming from but I'm not sure I would characterize it as exploiting the vulnerable. After all, if I was the donor I'd want the court to take every effort to ensure if I wasn't being notified that there was a good reason for that, or theoretically I could end up with my assets being stripped by someone who was unscrupulous. And that kind of due diligence costs money. Unfortunately even doctors "might" be coerced or bribed into signing - they are people after all.

JMO

Yeah well when my mother doesn't have the house insured and is not paying bills then if I don't help her she will end up in even bigger trouble. She never admits she has a problem and would be very distressed if she thought she was losing control in any way. I have to have an argument with her to be allowed to go to the shop to fetch a pint of milk for her she is so stubborn (or independent as she sees it).

And now I have to pay £400 to be allowed to do the paperwork for her - and no, I'm not unscrupulous, nor did I coerce anybody to do anything, I'm just trying to deal with an impossible situation - you might call it due diligence but to me it is a bureaucratic nightmare.
 

Grannie G

Volunteer Moderator
Apr 3, 2006
81,444
0
Kent
Hello Rose

I would not make myself responsible for any monies owed by someone else, however ill they were. There must be some way round this. Perhaps the AS Legal Helpline could offer a way out or the CAB or Age Concern.

What would be the position if you didn`t have the funds to bail your mother out?
 

rose_of_york

Registered User
Mar 22, 2008
94
0
York
What would be the position if you didn`t have the funds to bail your mother out?

I think Sylvia understands why I think this is exploiting the most vulnerable. Sick people may need their affairs dealing with by somebody else whether or not they have much money to sort out. Often their condition means they don't recognise that they need this help, and they can be difficult to deal with.

£400 seems a lot of money to be able to help them, expecially for those who are not well off.

Barbara
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Of course the option exists to apply for a fee remission should the persons assets be insufficient.

I know you're caught between a rock and a hard place: a woman who desperately needs your help but isn't prepared to accept it. For people like you, the guardianship system must seem like another barrier in your way. My only point was that sometimes systems designed to protect people just don't work in every case, but that it's less about exploiting the vulnerable, and more about one size doesn't fit all, which is always the case with a bureaucracy.

You might not believe this, but you have my sympathy about the situation you find yourself in with your mother - I'm not sure I wouldn't have walked away some time ago.

Something else that occurs - if you notified her as the EPA envisions, would she object? I don't mean would she scream the house down but would she be able to fill out the objection form on her own, and send it to the right place within the time constraints? Just a thought.

Take care
 
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rose_of_york

Registered User
Mar 22, 2008
94
0
York
Something else that occurs - if you notified her as the EPA envisions, would she object? I don't mean would she scream the house down but would she be able to fill out the objection form on her own, and send it to the right place within the time constraints? Just a thought.

Take care

I think she is beyond filling forms in now. She got herself in trouble earlier this year because she ignored letters from the TV licensing people. She was also selected to fill in a questionaire for the new "place survey" which asks about 40 questions about your opinions about local services and also wants to know ethnic origin, sexual orientation etc. It's very complicated and way beyond people with dementia, and of course has been ignored.

Anyway, this means I don't think she could fill in the form objecting to the registration of the power of attorney. I suppose it's me who is sick of her agitation, anger and disapproval. I am sick of having to argue with her to be allowed to do anything to help her. I am sick of being told that I am the only person who thinks she is "half gone" when everybody else knows she is perfectly OK.

I want some kind of a life for myself and not be constantly anxious or upset by her. Yesterday it was that I think she is incapable of managing her medication - I do have my suspicions when there is a 6 weeks supply of tablets untaken - she has to be forgetting them but is horrible to me when I suggest she might be.

If the P of A is registered it will make things easier as I can get hold of all documents and deal with them, but I know I will have to go through such anger from her when she finds out that I'm tempted to let her sink or swim!

Kind regards to you all

Barbara
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
I was just thinking Barbara, that in that case, as you are already the devil incarnate, why not go the "cheap" route and notify her as per normal. It doesn't seem to me that you could be blamed any more than you are already being, and this would be quicker. She's going to kick up a fuss whatever you do.

I suppose it's all down to whether you can cope with yet more attacks, but it doesn't seem, from the outside looking in, that it could be much worse.

take care of yourself
 

rose_of_york

Registered User
Mar 22, 2008
94
0
York
Oh I'm definitely the devil incarnate without any doubt - but I'm also the only one who does anything for her.

I will be on my own with her on Christmas day which will be awful, but at least I will see if she eats anything.

Then after Christmas I am going to the US for a whole week and have promised myself that I will only phone her once!

Barbara
 

Margaret W

Registered User
Apr 28, 2007
3,720
0
North Derbyshire
Oh Barbara

Stay strong if you can. I have only just read your recent posts, and have a mental blockage on previous posts, but just to say you will want to do what you can for mum.

If you have the power of attorney form, signed originally by mum, you don't need anything more other than to register it. Do it now, love. Never mind what your mum says or doesn't say, do it. It means you are then in charge of her finances if need be.

If she hasn't signed it, and you now think she is incapable of signing it, you will have to apply to the Court of Protection to get POA.

Once you have the POA signed everything is in your hands.

Oh, I feel for you. I didn't experience any resistance from my mum, she was glad to leave all decisions to me. Your mum is more feisty, Yes we found the medication clearly not taken, it is a nightmare not knowing what she has been doing.

Aw, "let her sink or swim". I hope that was a rash reaction to your stress. Hope you didn't mean it. I can see where you are coming from. You can take a horse to water, but can't force it to drink. It is hard work, and not easy if you have other demands on your time.

You sound so distressed, hope we can help here on Talking Point. Stay with us Barbara and let us help you through this.

Much love

Margaret
 

Lucille

Registered User
Sep 10, 2005
542
0
Hello Barbara and apols to Megski for hijacking your post ...

If it's any use, I didn't pay anything to register mum's EPA because she had limited means (or rather mum didn't pay anything!).

I read your posts, and thought, thank god, someone else feels exactly like I do. My mum has just asked me if I've moved her ciggies (I don't smoke), because, yet again, 'someone' has and it's not her, of course. I have tried over the past few days to broach the subject of her illness with her. On the one hand she accepts that she's 'sometimes' forgetful but five minutes later, says I'm making her worse, that if I just left her alone, she'd be fine. I am sat here, like you, thinking, oh get on with it then. Go on, but I know I won't. She is vulnerable and doesn't know what she's saying. It's only when I sit here, away from her, 'talking' to others on TP in the same position that I fully realise this. I was at screaming pitch tonight; she is so ungrateful. Thinks she can manage and is completely deluded about her capabilities. It is, for sure, like nailing jelly to a wall. :)

Hope you get the EPA sorted so that you can have some legal responsibility for what's going on. This quote of yours also applies to me: "I want some kind of a life for myself and not be constantly anxious or upset by her."

Go well (ish!!) :)
 

rose_of_york

Registered User
Mar 22, 2008
94
0
York
Oh Barbara


Aw, "let her sink or swim". I hope that was a rash reaction to your stress. Hope you didn't mean it. I can see where you are coming from. You can take a horse to water, but can't force it to drink. It is hard work, and not easy if you have other demands on your time.



Much love

Margaret

Thank you Margaret - but I'm afraid I did mean it - even her doctors have said that I should stand back and let her get on with it. She is so awkward that she refuses all help on principle, so she will have to come to recognise that she needs it, rather than being kept afloat without knowing about it as I have been doing.

I can help with practical things but do not want a battle to do them - I do have a job, and my mother is unwilling to pay for anything that I spend on looking after her, so giving up work is not a option, nor would I want it to be.

She is not a loving mother, so emotional support is out of the question, as it always has been.

Hope everybody on here has has as good a Chrstmas as possible under your individual circumstances. Take care everybody, and look after yourselves.

Barbara
 

Margaret W

Registered User
Apr 28, 2007
3,720
0
North Derbyshire
Dear Barbara

So you did mean it. Well, you have admitted it, and good for you, no need to hide it. I was really lucky in that my mum was so accepting of my advice, I never really had any battle. So I can't really advise on that.

But I do share your experience that your mum was never a loving mother, neither was mine. Not as long as I can remember. After my dad died in 2004, looking after mum was just a necessary chore which I did for my dad, tinged with some very negative feelings about her. It is different with your mother cos she is resisting your help, whereas mine didn't. But I never enjoyed a minute of her company, it was an absolute chore that I carried out with no pleasure at the time.

I don't think any daughter (or son) would be happy to see their mother sink or swim, but I can see that there is a limit to how much you can do where there is so much resistance. I suggest leaving it all for a few weeks, keep an eye open on what happens, and revisit later.

Enjoy your holiday in America, ring once, and I hope you come home to a lady who is more appreciative of your efforts.

Love

Margaret
 

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