Mum has Alzheimer’s. Dad wants to move money from her account to their joint account.

[candlelight]

That’s it really.

Her pension and attendance allowance go into her personal account. She rarely spends any of it, currently there is £15/16k in there.

Dad wants to put it into their joint account. If she won’t agree is there any way? Myself and two sisters have LPA for both Mum and Dad.

 

[Bunpoots]

Hi @candlelight . It would certainly make sense for your mums income to go into their joint account. I’m sure you realise it will all be gobbled up in care costs if she needs it.

Your dad won’t be able to move the money but you and/or your sisters should be able to arrange this as long as the LPA doesn’t say that your mum has to have lost capacity before you can use it. Alternatively you could set up a regular transfer of funds from your mum’s account into their joint account which would probably be easier.

 

[Sirena]

If you are currently using the LPA for your mother you can move the money on her behalf, and as Bunpoots says also set up a standing order to move the money over on a monthly basis. But as her attorney you do have to act in her best interests so keep that in mind.

 

[Beate]

Wouldn't that be classed deprivation of assets? Be very careful when moving money that belongs to a PWD like this.

 

[Duggies-girl]

If they have a joint account then I believe half of that would be taken into account as belonging to your mum.

Does your mum contribute to household bills and if she doesn't then she should and I can't see any reason why a monthly payment should not be made into the joint account.

 

[northumbrian_k]

It is more than just a question of whether she has Alzheimer's as that in itself does not mean that she is not able to make decisions about her own money. If she has capacity and will not agree to moving the money then as Attorney you need to respect her wishes. If she has lost capacity you need to act in a way in which preserves her best interests. Unless your Dad is suffering hardship due to lack of funds - in which event there might be a case for your mum to make a contribution to bills etc. from her money - I can't see a good reason for moving her money at this stage. As her dementia progresses it is likely that she will need a care package to which she may have to contribute funding if her total assets are above the local authority threshold. As @Beate has suggested I would be wary of moving money if there is any possibility that it might be classed as 'deprivation of assets':

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/informatio...paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

 

[Bunpoots]

Her attendance allowance is paid to help with her care. If she’s not spending it on her care and it’s just stacking up in her personal account I don’t see how moving it to where it will be used for the intended purpose could be considered deprivation of assets but, as @Beate says, you have to be careful about how much is moved.

Is there any chance your mum can be made to understand that she is depriving herself and your dad of funds which will only get swallowed in care costs if she keeps them in her own separate account.

Would she agree to bills being paid from her account by direct debit so that she’s sharing costs?

 

[Beate]

Hi there,
If you have Financial POA then it should be ok. You would be acting in her best interest, and moving the money into 'their' joint account so it can be used for them as a couple. Once she has a financial assessment when she needs care they will take everything off her. So moving some money across makes sense to me. We ensure that Mum continues to do all the things she did before, her weekly hairdressers appointment (she cant wash her own hair anymore), monthly manicure/ pedicure. Otherwise if she doesn't spend it on herself it will all be swallowed up paying for carers to come to the house. We are helping Mum enjoy the things she loves, for as long as she can. Why should she deprive herself of a little happiness.

And exactly THAT is classed as deprivation of assets. I can't stress enough that personal opinions are irrelevant here - if you move money belonging to just one person into an account belonging to two, which also gives the other joint account holder the permission to withdraw it all if they so wish, then Social Services will take a very dim view on that. It's different if the account had always been joint, but moving it now with the sole intent of somehow making at least half of it exempt from being used for care costs, is deprivation of assets, and they can make you pay it all back.

 

[RosettaT]

Hi MrsV, there is a world of difference between a few weekly treats that mum has always had and 'giving' some one £8k which is effectively what would happen if a large sum of money was transferred to a joint account. On the other hand it would depend on the reason for transferal as to whether it would be seen as DofA.
I bought a wheelchair adapted vehicle out of my OH savings earlier in the year because without it he would never get out. I didn't need it but he does. I see that as a legitimate expense, if/when the car is sold the proceeds will go back into his account. Consequently the car we have I didn't want to get rid of as it has sentimental value, so I have taken over the insurance, tax & MOT expenditure of that vehicle.

 

[Sirena]

As has been said, MrsV using her mother's own money to buy her a few treats is fine (although bear in mind that care at home paid for by SS will not be as satisfactory as care which is self funded).

It might sound as if the OP is suggesting her mother 'gives' her father half her money, but may not be as simple as that. if her pension and AA goes in an account and isn't touched, who is paying all the household bills? Presumably the bills come from the joint account, but it sounds as if her money isn't arriving in there so she isn't paying her share. If that is the case, transferring money from her account isn't deprivation of assets. It depends on the circumstances as to whether it's reasonable to access her money.

 

[Bunpoots]

As has been said, MrsV using her mother's own money to buy her a few treats is fine (although bear in mind that care at home paid for by SS will not be as satisfactory as care which is self funded).

It might sound as if the OP is suggesting her mother 'gives' her father half her money, but may not be as simple as that. if her pension and AA goes in an account and isn't touched, who is paying all the household bills? Presumably the bills come from the joint account, but it sounds as if her money isn't arriving in there so she isn't paying her share. If that is the case, transferring money from her account isn't deprivation of assets. It depends on the circumstances as to whether it's reasonable to access her money.

I read it as her not paying her fair share and keeping all of her pension and attendance allowance so surely these are not deprivation of assets If used to share household expenses etc.

 

[northumbrian_k]

Am I missing the point here or are we talking about using mum's own money for her personal welfare in a situation where (as a result of dementia) she is reluctant to do so? If so, and LPA is activated has this been registered with mum's bank to allow the Attorney to manage the account on her behalf? In that case, using Internet banking or otherwise it ought to be a simple matter of accessing the money in the account and spending it legitimately in her best interests. There should be no need for wholesale transfer to a different account (which would look like deprivation of assets). If mum has not hitherto used this money to contribute to household bills it might look odd to start doing it now.

Apologies if I have misunderstood ...

 

[Sirena]

I read it as her not paying her fair share and keeping all of her pension and attendance allowance so surely these are not deprivation of assets If used to share household expenses etc.

Yes me too. If so, a set amount regularly transferred to the joint account could be used to pay towards household bills by the OP's dad, which is logistically easier than the daughters having to access individual amounts for 'her half' of every bill.

 

[marionq]

Hi Sirena,
Yes I was thinking more along the lines of them setting up some Direct Debits for bill payments i.e. utilities/food/rent etc, in effect her fair share thereof. Sorry If I didn't explain myself better.

For our own circumstances Mum's weekly hairdressers isn't really a treat. She lives alone, she cant wash her own hair, she screams if she gets water in her eyes, and its an ordeal if we try to do it. Its more of a necessity than a treat.

So even though mum is still living independently and spending her own money (we put the cash in her purse and she spends it herself if taken out by family members shopping etc). She (or we) have to be mindful that we are going to get audited in some way (or her bank statements raked over by SS at the point when she has a financial assessment? Even though up until that point she has not needed carers? I'm really confused about this. When does a persons money stop belonging to them. We assumed it was at the point of them needing carers, and an assessment is sought.

When s financial assessment is done prior to a person going into care they are looking to see if there is evidence of other funds not declared eg dividends or interest being paid in. They may well be looking for misuse of funds which is not about normal spending but a third party eg helping themselves to withdrawals. Deprivation would include transfers of large sums to another person. The usual is to ask for six months bank statements but they could ask for more if they wished.

 

[Sirena]

@MrsV I wouldn't worry about being audited, SS aren't interested in small amounts like hairdressing or going out for a coffee, your mum is just living her normal life. If she wants a new coat or to go out for tea a couple of times a week no one is going to be bothered about that. They would only take an interest if larger sums of money had disappeared for no good reason.

 

[Beate]

As soon as someone is diagnosed with dementia, it should be clear that their money might have to be used for care costs one day. From that time you cannot fritter large amounts away or hand them to other people. Of course hairdresser costs don't matter, they are normal expenses. You are still allowed to treat yourself and go on holiday etc, unless maybe it's a round the world cruise that costs tens of thousands. Expenses have to be proportionate. If you always gave your grandkids £50 every birthday, this can continue. Suddenly bestowing them with huge disproportionate gifts cannot. Transferring big unexplained sums of money to someone else can neither. Basically everything done to deliberately run down money quickly so the state would have to take over care costs is not ok. SS can and will check that once they are asked to provide services, and they can go backwards years if they want. I hope it's clearer now.

 

[Beate]

Tax rules are completely separate from deprivation of assets issues, but even some solicitors confuse the two. Yes, theoretically everyone who can afford it can gift £3,000 a year for free. So if a PWD is rich, they can do that but if £3,000 is disproportionate to their wealth, they cannot as it would interfere with the deprivation of assets rules.

 

[Andrew_McP]

Also what would happen if the PWD decided to do equity release on their home, to something special for themselves, or their family, or help a grandhild get on the property ladder with a couple of thousand towards a house deposit.

The way I've always looked at it is that the powers that be are not interested in micromanaging anyone's life. Ensuring that the PWD is paying their way, and that their POA has access to the funds to do that (including things like Attendance Allowance to pay for enhanced care/spending needs) is one thing. Nobody need fear being taken to task for that kind of financial management (as seems to be the case with the original poster).

But once dementia is on the roadmap, future care needs have to be top of the list of financial concerns for anyone with more assets. Giving the traditional £20, or whatever, to a grandchild at Christmas is one thing. Helping them with a house deposit is quite another, even if it's what the PWD would have, or still, wishes. It would be very easy for investigators to say that the PWD was neglecting to take their own greatly altered circumstances into consideration. And I imagine equity release would be a very risky thing to try to get away with... assuming it's ever a good idea for anyone other that the firms enabling it.

Of course if nobody ever complains and the Office of the Public Guardian never has cause to investigate, I'm sure anything's possible. But the more money involved, the more anyone with POA should check before doing anything. Ultimately we're 100% legally responsible for any mistakes, and ignorance is never an excuse.