Trying to keep it all legal

[Squirrel12]

hi , my parent who has dementia and is now quickly declining in health has never discussed anything to do with money with the family and certainly not us having any control of his money , certain subjects are a no go area !
The issue is now he’s having carers we are getting him to sign for everything ( he’s completely un aware he’s paying ) we usually say it’s to agree to the carers coming - this is with full knowledge of the social workers etc but we are now accessing his account to pay for things that he needs. Although receipts etc are being kept for EVERYTHING are we ok doing this ?

 

[Bunpoots]

Hello @Squirrel12

At the moment I don't see you have much option as your dad needs to pay the carers. I'm not sure what the legal position is but when your dad is no longer able to sign his name what will you do? Is there any chance you could get your dad to set up an LPA. You could tell him it's so you can help him rather than take over - which it is until he loses capacity. Or is it already too late?

 

[nae sporran]

I was doing something like that until 5 years ago when the social worker reported me to the police for using my partner's account without official authorisation. Thankfully the sergeant who interviewed me was happy for me to apply to the bank to put my name on the account. I did that straight away, and got POA a couple of years later. IF your dad won't give you access to his bank account than that is something else. I notice Bunpoots has beaten me to it on POA.
The dementia helpline should be able to give you better advice on the legal situation. https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/national-dementia-helpline for the opening hours and phone number.

 

[Squirrel12]

At present his care bills are now set up to be paid via DD , I think it’s too late to set up LPA it would be very difficult for him to understand ( I barely understand it !) all his other bills are on DD as well so hopefully there won’t be anything else for him to sign . I think we will just have to hope there are no problems and keeping receipts for everything and I mean everything will be enough . I will check out the link .Thank you

 

[canary]

If its too late for POA because he has lost capacity (if he still has capacity he could sign POA) then the only other real option is to apply to the Court of Protection for deputyship, which is what I did because mum steadfastly refused POA, and then it was too late.

There is a lot of paper shuffling and form filling and it is not a cheap option (£400 just for the court hearing), but it is doable and I had no choice. If there is any way you could persuade your dad to sign a POA it would would be far, far better. Could you explain in simple language that he would understand? He only has to understand in the moment of signing for it to be legal. You dont have to use a solicitor - you can download the forms and do it DIY

 

[Squirrel12]

If its too late for POA because he has lost capacity (if he still has capacity he could sign POA) then the only other real option is to apply to the Court of Protection for deputyship, which is what I did because mum steadfastly refused POA, and then it was too late.

There is a lot of paper shuffling and form filling and it is not a cheap option (£400 just for the court hearing), but it is doable and I had no choice. If there is any way you could persuade your dad to sign a POA it would would be far, far better. Could you explain in simple language that he would understand? He only has to understand in the moment of signing for it to be legal. You dont have to use a solicitor - you can download the forms and do it DIY

I’m going to look into this before we are handcuffed off ! I think with the social worker knowing that we don’t have his ‘ consent ‘ we have been lulled into this position of ‘ it’s ok ‘ ....

 

[jaymor]

How are you purchasing things that you keep receipts for?

 

[Squirrel12]

How are you purchasing things that you keep receipts for?

We have his bank card -

 

[Shedrech]

hi @Squirrel12
these links may be of interest
LPAs would be best ... you are probably fine if your dad grasps that by signing he gives his Attorneys (if possible 2 to act jointly and severally; his choice) permission to help him manage his affairs and he agrees to do so
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/apply-deputy

it's good that most regular payments are already by DD ... but using your dad's bank card is problematic, even with his 'permission' ... might you open a joint account and organise a DD from your dad's account into the joint account, keeping the balance low so you don't build up too much of his money in it, then only you use it expressly for anything related to your dad

be aware that if a bank believes an account holder no longer has capacity to ma age the account, the account can be frozen until someone has the legal authority to manage it

 

[Beate]

You must organise either LPA or deputyship. Deputyship does not require your Dad to do anything but it's expensive and account keeping is onerous. Sorry, but what you are doing at the moment is not strictly legal.

 

[jaymor]

We have his bank card -

Using his bank card breaks banking rules. The card would have been issued on the understanding that The PIN would never be divulged to another person. This is where you could get into trouble. It also means that the bank would not cover any losses on the account. As a retired banker I would say please stop and if you can’t get LPA in place then go for deputyship especially as your Father has always been extremely private in his dealings.and would not have given permission even if it had been possible to do so. There is also the possibility of his account being frozen. Using someone’s account, even though you are keeping receipts and doing it with best intentions is wrong.

 

[Squirrel12]

Thank you all for the advice, fortunately anything to do with paying carers is set up and the account was used to get him emergency items . Will get the LPA sorted ASAP thank you

 

[McBeagle]

To be honest I would have said that a deputyship would be more appropriate in the circumstances you have outlined, but have a look at the LPA forms and see if your father can honestly comply with the level of understanding required add outlined in the forms. It would also be sensible to ask your father's GP to be the certificate provider to avoid any doubt.

Thank you all for the advice, fortunately anything to do with paying carers is set up and the account was used to get him emergency items . Will get the LPA sorted ASAP thank you

 

[Shedrech]

Welcome @McBeagle
I hope you find DTP useful and informative

though, @Squirrel12 , it seems from posts here that GPs are generally unwilling to act as a certificate provider even though they are on the list of those who can act in that role

from the Gov site:

Someone who has known you well for at least two years
You should ask a friend or neighbour, someone from your social or sports club, a work colleague, or similar. They must have known you well for at least two years. They must know you well enough to have an honest conversation with you about making your LPA and the things they have to confirm when they sign the LPA.

If possible, they should discuss your LPA with you in private, without attorneys or other people present, before they sign to ‘certify’ their part of the LPA.

Someone with relevant professional skills
Usually, someone with relevant professional skills would be one of the following:

• a registered healthcare professional, such as your GP
  
  
• a solicitor, barrister or advocate
  
  
• a registered social worker
  
  
• an independent mental capacity advocate (IMCA)
  

Other professionals may have skills suited to judging whether you can make an LPA – contact the Office of the Public Guardian if you’re unsure about your choice of certificate provider.

You may have to pay a professional to act as your certificate provider.

People who can’t be a certificate provider
The certificate provider must not be:

• an attorney or replacement attorney for the LPA
  
  
• an attorney or replacement attorney in any other LPA or enduring power of attorney that you’ve already made
  
  
• a member of your or your attorneys’ families – including wives, husbands, civil partners, in-laws and step-relatives
  
  
• an unmarried partner, boyfriend or girlfriend of yours or of any of your attorneys – whether or not they live at the same address
  
  
• your business partner or one of your attorneys’ business partners
  
  
• your employee or one of your attorneys’ employees
  
  
• an owner, manager, director or employee of a care home where you live, or a member of their family
  
  
• anyone running or working for a trust corporation appointed as an attorney in a financial decisions LPA
  

 

[McBeagle]

Welcome @McBeagle
I hope you find DTP useful and informative

though, @Squirrel12 , it seems from posts here that GPs are generally unwilling to act as a certificate provider even though they are on the list of those who can act in that role

from the Gov site:

Someone who has known you well for at least two years
You should ask a friend or neighbour, someone from your social or sports club, a work colleague, or similar. They must have known you well for at least two years. They must know you well enough to have an honest conversation with you about making your LPA and the things they have to confirm when they sign the LPA.

If possible, they should discuss your LPA with you in private, without attorneys or other people present, before they sign to ‘certify’ their part of the LPA.

Someone with relevant professional skills
Usually, someone with relevant professional skills would be one of the following:

• a registered healthcare professional, such as your GP
  
  
• a solicitor, barrister or advocate
  
  
• a registered social worker
  
  
• an independent mental capacity advocate (IMCA)

Other professionals may have skills suited to judging whether you can make an LPA – contact the Office of the Public Guardian if you’re unsure about your choice of certificate provider.

You may have to pay a professional to act as your certificate provider.

People who can’t be a certificate provider
The certificate provider must not be:

• an attorney or replacement attorney for the LPA
  
  
• an attorney or replacement attorney in any other LPA or enduring power of attorney that you’ve already made
  
  
• a member of your or your attorneys’ families – including wives, husbands, civil partners, in-laws and step-relatives
  
  
• an unmarried partner, boyfriend or girlfriend of yours or of any of your attorneys – whether or not they live at the same address
  
  
• your business partner or one of your attorneys’ business partners
  
  
• your employee or one of your attorneys’ employees
  
  
• an owner, manager, director or employee of a care home where you live, or a member of their family
  
  
• anyone running or working for a trust corporation appointed as an attorney in a financial decisions LPA

Our local GPs will do it - it does depend on the GP but also on the level of capacity of the person being assessed.

 

[MaNaAk]

At present his care bills are now set up to be paid via DD , I think it’s too late to set up LPA it would be very difficult for him to understand ( I barely understand it !) all his other bills are on DD as well so hopefully there won’t be anything else for him to sign . I think we will just have to hope there are no problems and keeping receipts for everything and I mean everything will be enough . I will check out the link .Thank you

Dear Squirrel,

Are you sure it's too late for an LPA? I did the financial one when dad's Alzheimers before diagnosis dad was against having an LPA but after diagnosis I started proceedings for the LPA (Financial) and I got it all completed by saying to dad that I need him to sign the documents to look after his money. When his Alzheimers became severe and we were looking at carehomes for respite and cataract operations I started to fill out the LPA (Health) I was able to tell him all about this one and he was still able to sign.

Your dad's finances need to be looked after by you. You are doing the best you can for your dad and he would have been proud of you so before spending £400 on the Court Of Protection you might want to reconsider the LPA and I would suggest applying on-line to save yourself money and try to get friends and neighbours to sign as witnesses and certificate providers. Our local surgery was going to charge £140 more than the LPA itself!

MaNaAk

 

[McBeagle]

Dear Squirrel,

Are you sure it's too late for an LPA? I did the financial one when dad's Alzheimers before diagnosis dad was against having an LPA but after diagnosis I started proceedings for the LPA (Financial) and I got it all completed by saying to dad that I need him to sign the documents to look after his money. When his Alzheimers became severe and we were looking at carehomes for respite and cataract operations I started to fill out the LPA (Health) I was able to tell him all about this one and he was still able to sign.

Your dad's finances need to be looked after by you. You are doing the best you can for your dad and he would have been proud of you so before spending £400 on the Court Of Protection you might want to reconsider the LPA and I would suggest applying on-line to save yourself money and try to get friends and neighbours to sign as witnesses and certificate providers. Our local surgery was going to charge £140 more than the LPA itself!

MaNaAk

 

[McBeagle]

I would be wary of trying to push it through - the safeguards are there for a reason. At the very least the person giving the power of attorney needs to be able to read and understand the form itself or have it read to then and understand it.