Moving to a care home

Brumsteve

Registered User
Feb 12, 2019
27
0
My mother seems to be declining quite rapidly with her dementia (diagnosed in Feb 19) and every time I visit, which is once a week due to my location and shifts, I have noticed it more as the weeks are going past. She has been asking to go into a home for a while now but social services have said she isn't bad enough but she had a visit from the doctor a couple of weeks ago and he said she would probably be better going into a home. He has sent a recommendation to her CPN that she moves. She has 3 visits a day from carers.

My sister and I have are both attorneys on her POA's (we have both) and my mother couldn't realistically make the decision to move herself, so, can my sister and myself make this decision for her that she needs to move and would social services have to act upon it?

Now when it comes to moving into a home she has a house to sell to start with so she would be self funding. Obviously that money won't last forever, possibly 4 years from my calculations, depending on how long she lives for. I also understand that the local authority can offer a bridging loan to pay for her place until the house is sold.

When it comes to finding her a home to move to are we allowed any say in where she goes to or will social services choose where she goes? I realise we need to be mindful that she could run out of money and end up relying on the place being paid for. Would it be advisable to choose a place that will accept council funding to prevent her having the possibility of being moved again?
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,081
0
Bury
As she will be self funding you can choose wherever you like, social services will not be interested.

The best agreement you could make with the home would be that if her money runs out they will not ask for a top up on LA funding, they will need to know the probable sale value of the house and details of her other capital and income.
Beware the trap that her condition changed meaning funds ran out quicker than anticipated.

Good luck with the bridging loan.
Don't sign anything until all ends are tied up.
 

Demi Jones

Registered User
Jun 14, 2019
15
0
My mother seems to be declining quite rapidly with her dementia (diagnosed in Feb 19) and every time I visit, which is once a week due to my location and shifts, I have noticed it more as the weeks are going past. She has been asking to go into a home for a while now but social services have said she isn't bad enough but she had a visit from the doctor a couple of weeks ago and he said she would probably be better going into a home. He has sent a recommendation to her CPN that she moves. She has 3 visits a day from carers.

My sister and I have are both attorneys on her POA's (we have both) and my mother couldn't realistically make the decision to move herself, so, can my sister and myself make this decision for her that she needs to move and would social services have to act upon it?

Now when it comes to moving into a home she has a house to sell to start with so she would be self funding. Obviously that money won't last forever, possibly 4 years from my calculations, depending on how long she lives for. I also understand that the local authority can offer a bridging loan to pay for her place until the house is sold.

When it comes to finding her a home to move to are we allowed any say in where she goes to or will social services choose where she goes? I realise we need to be mindful that she could run out of money and end up relying on the place being paid for. Would it be advisable to choose a place that will accept council funding to prevent her having the possibility of being moved again?
 

Demi Jones

Registered User
Jun 14, 2019
15
0
Good Luck,my mum went into a home on 7th June 2019 i have had no help what so ever she is self funding no body gives too hoots, dread to think what will happen when her money runs out i am terrified.
 

Sirena

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
2,324
0
As Nitram has said, as she is self funding SS will not be interested, you can choose the care home. My mother needed to move to a CH 18 months ago and I made all the arrangements myself, no SS input at all. My mother had about 5 years worth of funding and if she outlives her funds it will be up to CH and the LA if she can stay there or has to move.
 

Rosettastone57

Registered User
Oct 27, 2016
1,839
0
My mother seems to be declining quite rapidly with her dementia (diagnosed in Feb 19) and every time I visit, which is once a week due to my location and shifts, I have noticed it more as the weeks are going past. She has been asking to go into a home for a while now but social services have said she isn't bad enough but she had a visit from the doctor a couple of weeks ago and he said she would probably be better going into a home. He has sent a recommendation to her CPN that she moves. She has 3 visits a day from carers.

My sister and I have are both attorneys on her POA's (we have both) and my mother couldn't realistically make the decision to move herself, so, can my sister and myself make this decision for her that she needs to move and would social services have to act upon it?

Now when it comes to moving into a home she has a house to sell to start with so she would be self funding. Obviously that money won't last forever, possibly 4 years from my calculations, depending on how long she lives for. I also understand that the local authority can offer a bridging loan to pay for her place until the house is sold.

When it comes to finding her a home to move to are we allowed any say in where she goes to or will social services choose where she goes? I realise we need to be mindful that she could run out of money and end up relying on the place being paid for. Would it be advisable to choose a place that will accept council funding to prevent her having the possibility of being moved again?
My mother-in-law was self funding and went into care last summer directly from hospital. She never had any input from social services, we chose the home and the care home assessed her in hospital. The home asked us to complete a form outlining her funding before they would take her and they never asked whether social services were involved
 

pevensey

Registered User
Feb 14, 2012
286
0
South East Coast.
Some very good advice there.

Thank you all so far.
These posts have been really helpful, my OH is in respite at the moment his GP made an emergency referral 3 weeks ago, he thinks he should go into care permanently but it's just respite for now. But it's got me thinking of when the time comes for him to go into care home and I don't think it will be long, what would be the best and , but you have answerd easiest way to fund his care, Some people say to let council fund him until the house is sold after I pass away which wont be for a few yrs yet I hope or I sell house and downsize with my half of the house and keep my OH monies of his half of house to pay his care home fees. but you have answerd a couple of my querys here. Does anyone what is the best option
 

Sirena

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
2,324
0
The home asked us to complete a form outlining her funding before they would take her and they never asked whether social services were involved

I've heard some CHs do this, but my mother's didn't. They asked me how many years funding she had, I told them and they took my word for it.
 

Louise7

Volunteer Host
Mar 25, 2016
4,693
0
But it's got me thinking of when the time comes for him to go into care home and I don't think it will be long, what would be the best and , but you have answerd easiest way to fund his care, Some people say to let council fund him until the house is sold after I pass away which wont be for a few yrs yet I hope or I sell house and downsize with my half of the house and keep my OH monies of his half of house to pay his care home fees. but you have answerd a couple of my querys here. Does anyone what is the best option

If you remain living in the property when your OH goes into a care home the property will be disregarded in relation to paying for his care fees. You won't have to sell it or get a deferred payment agreement. His care costs will be calculated purely from his income/savings. The original post in this thread is a different scenario because it refers to someone's mother owning a property, in which case a deferred payment could be applied for in order to pay the fees, or the house sold.

If you decide to downsize at some point, and there is excess funds left over from the sale of your existing property, the local authority may well take that into account and he may then have to pay more towards his care fees, but you don't have to sell your existing home if you don't want to. If your OH does not have enough savings/income to pay for his own care then the local authority will have to fund this.
 

Sirena

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
2,324
0
@pevensey The only reason you should consider downsizing and releasing money for your husband's care is if you are not happy with the care the LA provide. If you are happy with the LA care, leave things as they are. It's entirely your choice, there is no obligation to release any money from the property to pay for his care.
 

Shedrech

Registered User
Dec 15, 2012
12,649
0
UK
hi @pevensey
these pages on the main AS site may help
https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/legal-financial/who-pays-care

personally, I would say think very carefully before considering selling your home ... all of the costs involved, probably several thousands, will be money you won't see again ... you don't get an equivalent half of property for half of the sale price ... you have all of the stress of moving at a time that is stressful enough for you

the legal provision that the property is disregarded while a spouse lives in it is there to provide YOU with some security for the present and for your future

if YOU prefer to downsize and move because it suits YOU and will benefit YOU, to me that is when you might think of a move ... and you may use some of your husband's share of the value in buying a new property as long the new property is also shared ownership with your husband ... then, any monies left over are also shared between you

please consider your own situation and future needs .... I appreciate that you want what is best for your husband, however you count equally ... his care fees should be paid from his income and assests only, plus half of any joint assets (NOT including your home) with the LA stepping in when thresholds are reached .. even agreeing to pay a third party top-up is problematic, as the fee will only increase (factor in 10% a year to be realistic)
 

pevensey

Registered User
Feb 14, 2012
286
0
South East Coast.
hi @pevensey
these pages on the main AS site may help
https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/legal-financial/who-pays-care

personally, I would say think very carefully before considering selling your home ... all of the costs involved, probably several thousands, will be money you won't see again ... you don't get an equivalent half of property for half of the sale price ... you have all of the stress of moving at a time that is stressful enough for you

the legal provision that the property is disregarded while a spouse lives in it is there to provide YOU with some security for the present and for your future

if YOU prefer to downsize and move because it suits YOU and will benefit YOU, to me that is when you might think of a move ... and you may use some of your husband's share of the value in buying a new property as long the new property is also shared ownership with your husband ... then, any monies left over are also shared between you

please consider your own situation and future needs .... I appreciate that you want what is best for your husband, however you count equally ... his care fees should be paid from his income and assests only, plus half of any joint assets (NOT including your home) with the LA stepping in when thresholds are reached .. even agreeing to pay a third party top-up is problematic, as the fee will only increase (factor in 10% a year to be realistic)
Thankyou to everyone who has really given me helpful information. I'm quite surprised at what's been said. I was ALWAYS under the impression that once OH half goes into fulltime care that although I could stay in our house presumed they sort of lent us the money to pay the care home fees then took it back WITH INTEREST after it was sold when I passed away. I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT. Everywhere I read that if you have property you have to pay carehome fees, think it's called a deferred payment, but now I'm being told that's not so. I'm very pleasantly surprised but still hard to believe. So I can stay in my house and not have to downsize. Thankyou for that good news but I'm still sceptical sorry.
 

pevensey

Registered User
Feb 14, 2012
286
0
South East Coast.
Thankyou to everyone who has really given me helpful information. I'm quite surprised at what's been said. I was ALWAYS under the impression that once OH half goes into fulltime care that although I could stay in our house presumed they sort of lent us the money to pay the care home fees then took it back WITH INTEREST after it was sold when I passed away. I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT. Everywhere I read that if you have property you have to pay carehome fees, think it's called a deferred payment, but now I'm being told that's not so. I'm very pleasantly surprised but still hard to believe. So I can stay in my house and not have to downsize. Thankyou for that good news but I'm still sceptical sorry.
Sorry to keep on but I keep thinking about this. SO my hubby goes into full.time care, the council take his state pension and works pension and attendance allowence for his side of payment and they pay the rest is that how it works. please can someone confirm for me..thankyou.everyone.
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,064
0
Salford
Thankyou for that good news but I'm still sceptical sorry.
You don't need to be sceptical about it, the 2014 Care Act does not allow the property to be counted in a financial assessment and to do so would not be legal, neither can and charge or DPA be placed on the property as long as you're living there.
The Statutory Guidance notes to the act, Annex B, Section 34, Paragraph 3 "says:
"Property disregards
34) In the following circumstances the value of the person’s main or only home must be disregarded:
  1. (a) where the person is receiving care in a setting that is not a care home
  2. (b) if the person’s stay in a care home is temporary and they either:
    1. (i) intend to return to that property and that property is still available to them
    2. (ii) are taking reasonable steps to dispose of the property in order to acquire another more suitable property to return to
  3. (c) where the person no longer occupies the property but it is occupied in part or whole as their main or only home by any of the people listed below, the mandatory disregard only applies where the property has been continuously occupied since before the person went into a care home (for discretionary disregards see below):
    1. (i) the persons partner, former partner or civil partner, except where they are estranged"
As you're the partner the house is a mandatory disregard, no if's, no but's the LA can't touch it provided you are a partner and lived there before he went into care.
There is a list of other qualifying people who can make the house a mandatory disregard, it's all on the link below to the 2014 Care Act below.
You can if you want downsize or move to a preferred location then half of any equity released would have to go to him, however, if you downsize but move to a nicer area you may not release any capital. I'm thinking of moving nearer to the home my wife's in but it's a posher area and I'd have to spend all the money from the sale of my 3 bed semi to afford a terraced house there, I won't be driving forever and it's a £12 taxi ride each way so if I stopped driving there's no way I could afford £24 a day in taxi fares.

K

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e/care-and-support-statutory-guidance#annexes
 

pevensey

Registered User
Feb 14, 2012
286
0
South East Coast.
You don't need to be sceptical about it, the 2014 Care Act does not allow the property to be counted in a financial assessment and to do so would not be legal, neither can and charge or DPA be placed on the property as long as you're living there.
The Statutory Guidance notes to the act, Annex B, Section 34, Paragraph 3 "says:
"Property disregards
34) In the following circumstances the value of the person’s main or only home must be disregarded:
  1. (a) where the person is receiving care in a setting that is not a care home
  2. (b) if the person’s stay in a care home is temporary and they either:
    1. (i) intend to return to that property and that property is still available to them
    2. (ii) are taking reasonable steps to dispose of the property in order to acquire another more suitable property to return to
  3. (c) where the person no longer occupies the property but it is occupied in part or whole as their main or only home by any of the people listed below, the mandatory disregard only applies where the property has been continuously occupied since before the person went into a care home (for discretionary disregards see below):
    1. (i) the persons partner, former partner or civil partner, except where they are estranged"
As you're the partner the house is a mandatory disregard, no if's, no but's the LA can't touch it provided you are a partner and lived there before he went into care.
There is a list of other qualifying people who can make the house a mandatory disregard, it's all on the link below to the 2014 Care Act below.
You can if you want downsize or move to a preferred location then half of any equity released would have to go to him, however, if you downsize but move to a nicer area you may not release any capital. I'm thinking of moving nearer to the home my wife's in but it's a posher area and I'd have to spend all the money from the sale of my 3 bed semi to afford a terraced house there, I won't be driving forever and it's a £12 taxi ride each way so if I stopped driving there's no way I could afford £24 a day in taxi fares.

K

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e/care-and-support-statutory-guidance#annexes
You don't need to be sceptical about it, the 2014 Care Act does not allow the property to be counted in a financial assessment and to do so would not be legal, neither can and charge or DPA be placed on the property as long as you're living there.
The Statutory Guidance notes to the act, Annex B, Section 34, Paragraph 3 "says:
"Property disregards
34) In the following circumstances the value of the person’s main or only home must be disregarded:
  1. (a) where the person is receiving care in a setting that is not a care home
  2. (b) if the person’s stay in a care home is temporary and they either:
    1. (i) intend to return to that property and that property is still available to them
    2. (ii) are taking reasonable steps to dispose of the property in order to acquire another more suitable property to return to
  3. (c) where the person no longer occupies the property but it is occupied in part or whole as their main or only home by any of the people listed below, the mandatory disregard only applies where the property has been continuously occupied since before the person went into a care home (for discretionary disregards see below):
    1. (i) the persons partner, former partner or civil partner, except where they are estranged"
As you're the partner the house is a mandatory disregard, no if's, no but's the LA can't touch it provided you are a partner and lived there before he went into care.
There is a list of other qualifying people who can make the house a mandatory disregard, it's all on the link below to the 2014 Care Act below.
You can if you want downsize or move to a preferred location then half of any equity released would have to go to him, however, if you downsize but move to a nicer area you may not release any capital. I'm thinking of moving nearer to the home my wife's in but it's a posher area and I'd have to spend all the money from the sale of my 3 bed semi to afford a terraced house there, I won't be driving forever and it's a £12 taxi ride each way so if I stopped driving there's no way I could afford £24 a day in taxi fares.

K

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e/care-and-support-statutory-guidance#annexes
Thankyou Kevini, for your quick reply, people are so very caring and helpful on here and just reading these posts sometimes makes me realise there are people in a much worse situation than me. But yes your post is very interesting Kevini and does put it all in black and white how it is. BUT what I've been querying IS and what I've just read on another site is that they DO TAKE there fees they paid for hubby's care plus interest when the house is sold after I HAVE DIED say about 10 yrs from now, I'm 78, so then my children will loose half there inheritance, I'm sure that's right.. isn't it.
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,064
0
Salford
BUT what I've been querying IS and what I've just read on another site is that they DO TAKE there fees they paid for hubby's care plus interest when the house is sold after I HAVE DIED say about 10 yrs from now, I'm 78, so then my children will loose half there inheritance, I'm sure that's right.. isn't it.
Well firstly stop reading such ill informed sites, as long as you, as a partner live in the home it cannot be taken into account and no charges can be placed against it, not now, not ever (under current laws).
The situation you refer to about them taking money but only if you enter a DPA (Deferred Payment Agreement) with the LA but they can't do that as the house is a mandatory disregard so under the 2014 Care Act it would be illegal for them to do that.
So there are 2 possible situations; first is the current situation, second is the issue of tenancy.
First situation is you as a partner live in the house and pass away first (run over by the number 19 bus or whatever) then the house becomes his, in that case it can be taken into account in a financial assessment as you no longer live there, in that case the house could be sold or the beneficiaries of the will could enter a DPA and let the LA put a charge on the house, currently they can charge about 2.5% interest (plus a set up charge) and the interest rate is fixed by the government not the LA, the set up charge is done on a "none profit" basis but varies from LA to LA, seems to be anywhere from £200 to £500 from what I've read.
Second situation is that he goes first, the LA can't have placed any charges against your home as they're not allowed to as per my previous link to the 2014 Care Act so the house becomes yours totally free of any debts or charges relating to your husband's care, if he goes first them it's all yours to do with as you wish.
Local Authorities don't break the law and they cannot legally assign any current or future debt relating to your husband's care to your house as long as you live there, it wouldn't be legal so why would they do that?
The other bit of **** is that "your children will lose half their inheritance" as soon as he passes away all the house is yours so they'll get the lot, as soon as he passes the house is yours to leave to a whoever you want.
Before I bore you to death there are 2 types of tenancy; joint tenants and tenants in common, virtually anyone who had a house with a mortgage would be a joint tenant (there are some rare exceptions) as building societies insisted on doing it that way if so then on the death of one person the house passes to the other person automatically so there's no 50/50% split you both own all of the house on the death of the other.
Tenants in common do have an assigned share of a property registered on the Land Registry, people who buy a property and one puts a lot more in than the other or people buying together but not in a relationship or doing a buy to let would want it recorded that one has a greater share of the equity in the house, as I say not common for spouses but it can happen, usually later life relationships where people want to preserve their share for their side of the family.
Like I say I don't know what or where you've been reading this stuff but it's all a load of rubbish or not applicable to your circumstances, the law is the law and no charges against the spousal home is the law, not now, not ever.
K
 

Louise7

Volunteer Host
Mar 25, 2016
4,693
0
my children will loose half there inheritance,

There's been a lot of information in the press recently about people having to sell their homes to pay for their care, with a lot of emphasis on family members 'losing their inheritance'. People seem to think that inheritance is a 'right', but it only applies after someone has died. You may need to pay for your own care at some point in the future, and unless there is a radical change to the current social care provisions (politicians keep promising but there's rarely any meaningful action) then the reality is that you would need to fund some/all of your care yourself. I hope that your children realise that they shouldn't expect an inheritance. My sister and I are currently in the process of selling the home that has been in the family for 90 years to pay for my Mum's care, and are under no illusion that there will be any money left as an 'inheritance' once her care has been paid for. Having had previous bad experiences of homes that Mum was placed in by social services we would rather have the ability to choose good care for her than an inheritance.
 

pevensey

Registered User
Feb 14, 2012
286
0
South East Coast.
Well firstly stop reading such ill informed sites, as long as you, as a partner live in the home it cannot be taken into account and no charges can be placed against it, not now, not ever (under current laws).
The situation you refer to about them taking money but only if you enter a DPA (Deferred Payment Agreement) with the LA but they can't do that as the house is a mandatory disregard so under the 2014 Care Act it would be illegal for them to do that.
So there are 2 possible situations; first is the current situation, second is the issue of tenancy.
First situation is you as a partner live in the house and pass away first (run over by the number 19 bus or whatever) then the house becomes his, in that case it can be taken into account in a financial assessment as you no longer live there, in that case the house could be sold or the beneficiaries of the will could enter a DPA and let the LA put a charge on the house, currently they can charge about 2.5% interest (plus a set up charge) and the interest rate is fixed by the government not the LA, the set up charge is done on a "none profit" basis but varies from LA to LA, seems to be anywhere from £200 to £500 from what I've read.
Second situation is that he goes first, the LA can't have placed any charges against your home as they're not allowed to as per my previous link to the 2014 Care Act so the house becomes yours totally free of any debts or charges relating to your husband's care, if he goes first them it's all yours to do with as you wish.
Local Authorities don't break the law and they cannot legally assign any current or future debt relating to your husband's care to your house as long as you live there, it wouldn't be legal so why would they do that?
The other bit of **** is that "your children will lose half their inheritance" as soon as he passes away all the house is yours so they'll get the lot, as soon as he passes the house is yours to leave to a whoever you want.
Before I bore you to death there are 2 types of tenancy; joint tenants and tenants in common, virtually anyone who had a house with a mortgage would be a joint tenant (there are some rare exceptions) as building societies insisted on doing it that way if so then on the death of one person the house passes to the other person automatically so there's no 50/50% split you both own all of the house on the death of the other.
Tenants in common do have an assigned share of a property registered on the Land Registry, people who buy a property and one puts a lot more in than the other or people buying together but not in a relationship or doing a buy to let would want it recorded that one has a greater share of the equity in the house, as I say not common for spouses but it can happen, usually later life relationships where people want to preserve their share for their side of the family.
Like I say I don't know what or where you've been reading this stuff but it's all a load of rubbish or not applicable to your circumstances, the law is the law and no charges against the spousal home is the law, not now, not ever.
K
Well firstly stop reading such ill informed sites, as long as you, as a partner live in the home it cannot be taken into account and no charges can be placed against it, not now, not ever (under current laws).
The situation you refer to about them taking money but only if you enter a DPA (Deferred Payment Agreement) with the LA but they can't do that as the house is a mandatory disregard so under the 2014 Care Act it would be illegal for them to do that.
So there are 2 possible situations; first is the current situation, second is the issue of tenancy.
First situation is you as a partner live in the house and pass away first (run over by the number 19 bus or whatever) then the house becomes his, in that case it can be taken into account in a financial assessment as you no longer live there, in that case the house could be sold or the beneficiaries of the will could enter a DPA and let the LA put a charge on the house, currently they can charge about 2.5% interest (plus a set up charge) and the interest rate is fixed by the government not the LA, the set up charge is done on a "none profit" basis but varies from LA to LA, seems to be anywhere from £200 to £500 from what I've read.
Second situation is that he goes first, the LA can't have placed any charges against your home as they're not allowed to as per my previous link to the 2014 Care Act so the house becomes yours totally free of any debts or charges relating to your husband's care, if he goes first them it's all yours to do with as you wish.
Local Authorities don't break the law and they cannot legally assign any current or future debt relating to your husband's care to your house as long as you live there, it wouldn't be legal so why would they do that?
The other bit of **** is that "your children will lose half their inheritance" as soon as he passes away all the house is yours so they'll get the lot, as soon as he passes the house is yours to leave to a whoever you want.
Before I bore you to death there are 2 types of tenancy; joint tenants and tenants in common, virtually anyone who had a house with a mortgage would be a joint tenant (there are some rare exceptions) as building societies insisted on doing it that way if so then on the death of one person the house passes to the other person automatically so there's no 50/50% split you both own all of the house on the death of the other.
Tenants in common do have an assigned share of a property registered on the Land Registry, people who buy a property and one puts a lot more in than the other or people buying together but not in a relationship or doing a buy to let would want it recorded that one has a greater share of the equity in the house, as I say not common for spouses but it can happen, usually later life relationships where people want to preserve their share for their side of the family.
Like I say I don't know what or where you've been reading this stuff but it's all a load of rubbish or not applicable to your circumstances, the law is the law and no charges against the spousal home is the law, not now, not ever.
K
Wow Kevini, thankyou for all that information, you are certainly well informed and you make it a lot easier to understand than it is reading it when I Googled it. You have really put my mind at rest, My mind was spinning with all the different articles I was reading, thankyou again. I've been looking at a few care homes today with my daughter and my hubby comes home on Tuesday after being 3 weeks on respite but I know it will only be about 6 months or so before he has to go permanently but I didnt like the place he was at the past 3 weeks and he seems to have deteriorated in the short time hes been there. I have seen some nice ones today and now I have a clearer head on the financial side of it all I feel a lot better.