Care home funding and SS

[Lynmax]

I am just beginning to look at care homes for the future for my mum, not necessary yet but I don't want to wait for a crisis and then be on the back foot.

I have spend two weeks trying to find out the level of funding mum would get from the Manchester authority once her own savings run out. Ideally I want the financial amount and the name of at least one care home that will accept the local authority amount without a top up from the family. I have phoned, emailed and written.

I have had zilch in the way of a response, in fact no one I have contacted seems to understand what I am asking! My mum lives in S Manchester where prices are dearer than in N Manchester ( more trees here I think!) and I suspect she might be directed to one many miles from her home but I would be happy to visit one anywhere in Manchester if they would just give me a name!

I have a good friend who is a family solicitor and he has offered to find out but I did not think it would be so had getting an answer to a simple question.

I am being too simplistic or unreasonable? I just want to know the amount the LA will pay and the name of a home that accepts these prices.

 

[Kevinl]

Good luck with that, anywhere that accepts LA funding is a closely guarded secret as the LA want to keep those places to themselves in my experience for obvious reasons like they want to keep the best deals for themselves and likewise very few care homes publish a price list.
It could be classed as "commercially sensitive" information in that giving that information to the homes means the LA is "showing its hand" and can't play one care home off against another.
I was told the LA rate in Salford so I'd expect Manchester to be about the same at around £500pw give or take.
LA's work on price so if you're in south Manchester then placements in Trafford, Cheshire, Stockport or Salford may be an option, my wife's in care with a lot of people from out of the LA's area like Bolton, Bury, Sale to name a few but it is a specialist home for people with "challenging" behaviour, when she was sectioned we had people from all over the NW.
While you're self funding don't expect too much help from the SS and even when you're not don't expect too much help either, if you want a home that will accept a self funder who may then become LA funded then that's the question to ask, some will (maybe with a self funding time requirement) some won't, but again you may go somewhere which will accept mum but then maybe won't if she becomes in anyway difficult, bloody minefield basically.
People on her in the City of Manchester may be able to tell you the going rate in that city but finding homes that take that rate is another thing.
K

 

[Agzy]

Wow, I am just about to embarks on the same mission in Wirral for my OH. As we are not married things seem even more confused as what income they look at and if £500pw is rate to be paid as a minimum then she will need a top up to her pension and Care Allowance which is all she gets personally. I however have a company pension as well as state pension boosted by the fact I stayed in SERPS while working. Will my income also be taken into account? I have no idea. Ive asked for a carers assessment 3 times and been fobbed off as too soon or next year maybe. Why cant these things be more transparent?

 

[Louise7]

No, your income won't be taken into account in your partner's financial assessment, just hers.

You might find this 'paying for care' factsheet helpful: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/legal-financial/who-pays-care

 

[Helly68]

Sadly, you have to wait until you reach a point, where you have been self-funding in a care home, and say in six month time your funds would run out, and then have a social services assessment of need and the LA will assess what funds your PWD has. I don't think anywhere will predict anything in advance.

We are just going through this process now. Most LAs have a booklet that explains the level to which your PWD savings fall to before they will consider funding, if that makes sense?

It is a complex process which doesn't necessarily allow the kind of future planning that you are thinking of. What you want to do is quite logical, but sadly the pressured social services system doesn't support this.

 

[jugglingmum]

@Agzy - when the LA are paying, they take all her pension, and attendance allowance stops and pay their rate so they don't top up as such, she gets to keep about £25ish a week for personal items - clothing toiletries etc.

Top ups apply if the home costs more than the LA rate eg LA pay £500 and family pay £100.
I don't know if this makes sense.

I don't know how much homes on the Wirral charge, but a home local to me in Great Sutton and it's sister home in Little Sutton charge not much more than £500 - my colleague's mum was in one of the 2 when she had early stage dementia, and she was paying just over £500 pw, she then moved to the dementia wing and I assume costs went up. As this home is walking distance for me I asked how much it was. I would assume homes in West Kirby heswall etc charge a lot more, but I would expect there to be a choice of homes which take LA rate on the Wirral

 

[nitram]

Top ups apply if the home costs more than the LA rate eg LA pay £500 and family pay £100.
I don't know if this makes sense.

It's best to sign a contract with the LA to pay a specific top up to them which they then pay to the home. This way the contract for care is with the LA and any future increases in the top up will have to be routed through them.

 

[father ted]

My Mum has been self funding in a care home for a year. Her funds are running low and so I contacted Social Services early before her funds reached £23,000 in case of delays and am I glad I did because I have only had a response when I have chased them up. At the moment I am still lodged with the ‘initial response’ team. I have now had contact with 4 different ‘initial responders’ via e mail. One did contact me to give me information- all stuff that I already learned from this site. Meantime we have had 2 more invoices from the home.

The more I read from different websites, factsheets and the more I am ‘signposted’ the more confused I get. I have had conflicting advice from different organisations mainly because guidelines are open to interpretation I think. The advice above though regarding top ups being paid to LA rather than home makes sense and I will bear this in mind. At the outset I didn’t even know that a chosen home has to be on their register of approved places to be funded, fortunately our is.
It really is very worrying.

 

[Sirena]

I can understand you wanting info in advance, but I'm wondering how soon you envisage your mother needing a care home, and how many years self funding you expect her have?

Things change fairly rapidly in the world of care homes and there is only any point having this type of information at the actual point you need it. Until fairly recently, the LA was the biggest client at my mother's care home, but the LA rates dropped so low they now only accept private admissions. I moved my mother there anyway because it was the right place for her, and she had five years worth of funds and anything can happen in that time. Her current care home may agree to accept her at LA rates at the end of five years, but if she has to move, so be it. If she'd only had a year's worth of funds, obviously my attitude would have been very different.

 

[good gosh]

Has anyone looked after their partner to the end,, at home, to save paying £50,000 a year to nursing homes?
It must be possible for a fit carer and the NHS can be called in if there are medical treatments needed.

 

[jugglingmum]

I suggest @good gosh that you read a few more threads on TP before thinking that it is simply a case of saving money.

Many many members of TP over my time have suffered carer breakdown due to the relentlessness of the illness. I don't think anyone whose partner goes into a carehome does it through choice, but due to sheer exhaustion from no sleep night after night, no chance to leave the house, no chance to do any housework, or unmanageable behaviours such as violence etc.

I think your comments come across as lacking in knowledge, as many of the carers whose partner has had to go into a carer home are distraught at no longer being able to care for them.

I don't think I've ever read of a partner on TP not wanting to try and care for their OH until the end, but sometimes this just isn't possible.

In my case I care for my mother and personally I think that is a whole different ball game. I work part time, when crisis happened my kids were 8 and 12, and whilst my mum could still walk to the shops to get a paper, sort out breakfast she made very difficult comments to my children on a daily basis and it simply wasn't fair on my children to expect them to endure her behaviour.

 

[good gosh]

Thanks Jugglingmum. I'm hoping to do it all myself, but I can always give up and find a care home at anytime if I have too. Problem is, my wife is now very bad tempered and trends to violence when crossed. She would give care home staff and residents hell - as she does me - but I can handle it so far, along with help line advice. .

 

[Sirena]

Thanks Jugglingmum. I'm hoping to do it all myself, but I can always give up and find a care home at anytime if I have too. Problem is, my wife is now very bad tempered and trends to violence when crossed. She would give care home staff and residents hell - as she does me - but I can handle it so far, along with help line advice. .

Some people find their PWD is less bad tempered in a different environment, with professional carers. Not guaranteed of course, but it's a possibility.

 

[Sam Luvit]

Has anyone looked after their partner to the end,, at home, to save paying £50,000 a year to nursing homes?
It must be possible for a fit carer and the NHS can be called in if there are medical treatments needed.

Hi @good gosh

Yes, some people do manage to care for their PWD to the very end, but it has nothing to do with saving money, mostly it’s go do with keeping them & the Carer (& family) safe and exhaustion.

To give you an idea, 4 half hour visits a day, to help get them out of bed, washed, on & off commodes, into bed, which isn’t a lot of help, will cost iro £350 a week. That still leaves the Carer doing all the other things & often very little sleep as the PWD gets up 2, 3 or 4 times a night. It’s exhausting

There is no time off, the days of the week are meaningless & you dread Bank Holidays for the reduced help available. Mum was early stages for the first two years & it was relatively easy. I even got to go away overnight a few times. But, as things progressed, that became impossible & I got pretty close to Carer breakdown. Fortunately I have an excellent GP & she called me in to see her, after ASC has been for a visit.

For many, the anguish of realising they can’t manage the aggression, can’t keep their PWD safe at home or they themselves suffer with ill health, is intense, as they are forced to make the decision that it’s safer & kinder to find a care home.

Getting a GP to visit is not easy. Mums GP refused home visits as she wasn’t “permanently house bound”. She had a broken collar bone, broken wrist & fracture in her pelvis at the time.

We all do our best, until we can’t or it’s just not enough. The money just doesn’t factor in

 

[good gosh]

Some people find their PWD is less bad tempered in a different environment, with professional carers. Not guaranteed of course, but it's a possibility.

Yes, my wife is as sweet as puppy with other people for a while - but its often an act and wouldn't last long unless there was an unlikely genuine bond.

 

[Sam Luvit]

Hi @Lynmax

I wanted an idea of what was around & where mum might settle, if we got to that point. I’d also heard of long waiting lists & read of people putting their name in the list, so they could hope for the best place when needed

With that in mind, I sort of bent the truth a bit. I went to a few care homes & asked if I could look around. I explained it was not yet, but I was trying to find a nice place, I asked if they had a day centre that mum could go to once a week so she wouId become familiar with the home. I chatted. They talked. You get a lot out of them when you chat

Most are reluctant to give you a price list over the phone, however, if you visit, they tend to tell you “this room is £750, but that one is £800”, so you get an idea of their costs if you were a self funder. The most expensive are not necessarily the best. Look beyond the fancy reception area & the beautiful gardens, they aren’t as important as the attitude of the staff & level of caring.

There is no guarantee that a care home will agree to LA rate from a previously self funder, but you can argue with SS about best interests if they have been there a while. Unfortunately it really is about money, there isn’t enough, so you need to argue for staying put.

While I understand your need to plan, so much can change in just six months, that your research today, could be meaningless next year as LA rates change, care homes merge or your mums needs change in a way you hadn’t thought of. However, you will have an idea of which homes you might want to take another look at & those you definately don’t

You could try going along to one of the peer support groups, you can then ask if any of the carers there are willing & (or able) to tell you of LA funded homes. They can also tell you the “good” or “not so good” homes

 

[Sam Luvit]

Yes, my wife is as sweet as puppy with other people for a while - but its often an act and wouldn't last long unless there was an unlikely genuine bond.

Oh yes ... good old “Hostess Mode”. It seems to take an enormous amount of energy to sustain for a short period. The bad temper or aggression when the visitor has left ...

Some threads show that the PWD respond much better when they go into a care home, @LadyA ’s husband was such a person

 

[good gosh]

Hi @good gosh

Yes, some people do manage to care for their PWD to the very end, but it has nothing to do with saving money, mostly it’s go do with keeping them & the Carer (& family) safe and exhaustion.

To give you an idea, 4 half hour visits a day, to help get them out of bed, washed, on & off commodes, into bed, which isn’t a lot of help, will cost iro £350 a week. That still leaves the Carer doing all the other things & often very little sleep as the PWD gets up 2, 3 or 4 times a night. It’s exhausting

There is no time off, the days of the week are meaningless & you dread Bank Holidays for the reduced help available. Mum was early stages for the first two years & it was relatively easy. I even got to go away overnight a few times. But, as things progressed, that became impossible & I got pretty close to Carer breakdown. Fortunately I have an excellent GP & she called me in to see her, after ASC has been for a visit.

For many, the anguish of realising they can’t manage the aggression, can’t keep their PWD safe at home or they themselves suffer with ill health, is intense, as they are forced to make the decision that it’s safer & kinder to find a care home.

Getting a GP to visit is not easy. Mums GP refused home visits as she wasn’t “permanently house bound”. She had a broken collar bone, broken wrist & fracture in her pelvis at the time.

We all do our best, until we can’t or it’s just not enough. The money just doesn’t factor in

Thanks Sam. I'm not shy of spending money when necessary but I am a ardent DIYer in all things (whether I like the task or not). and its fun learning new skills, even late in my 4th score of years. I recon I can live on constant alert day and night, deal with all physical demands and shut out hysterical objections - because others manage it all when working in care homes..

 

[Beate]

Yes, but those people go home at the end of the day. They get paid for their work. They don't look after their loved one. They can complain about their day to their partner over a glass of wine or they can leave that job as and when they wish.
It's really not comparable, and there is no shame in asking for help.
I looked after my OH for 6 years, the last three of them having given up work. I had a good care package through Social Services. He had little money so the council would have had to fund anyway. Nevertheless I kept him at home as long as I could but a lengthy hospital visit and lost mobility put paid to that. He only lasted 10 days in the nursing home, but it nearly killed me too.

I am now battling various health problems, and I am still under 50. The physical and emotional toll is not to be underestimated. And it doesn't actually stop when someone enters a home. You still care for them and try to make sure they are well looked after by others.

 

[Sam Luvit]

Thanks Sam. I'm not shy of spending money when necessary but I am a ardent DIYer in all things (whether I like the task or not). and its fun learning new skills, even late in my 4th score of years. I recon I can live on constant alert day and night, deal with all physical demands and shut out hysterical objections - because others manage it all when working in care homes..

Don’t forget .... those working in care homes get to go home after an 8 hour shift & relax, they even get 2 days off a week. A Carer is there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for ????? years

I like your enthusiasm, but with the best will in the world, it’s not an easy life ahead