I've put a charge on Mums property.

[Paul A]

I have looked after mum for many, many years. Holidays, shopping, home maintenance, everything possible.
Latterly, building a 'granny flat' at my home. Mum has gone into care, and I have put an 'all monies' charge on her home in 'lieu' of the costs for the above. It's not me being mercenary, but after working and paying tax all her life, it really aggravates me that the local authority could possibly do the same? Mums carehome fees at the moment will be paid from pension and me.

Does anyone know if this would stand up against the LA?

 

[Louise7]

Does your Mum have a property separate from the granny flat? If so, what is the benefit in you placing the charge on the property? Your Mum's fees have to be paid somehow. If you wanted to keep her property then you could have arranged for a deferred payment. The LA would place a charge on the property and pay her care home fees until either the property was sold or your Mum passed away. However as you have now placed a charge on the property the option of a deferred payment may no longer be available to you (I know that LA's usually stipulate that they have first charge on the property before agreeing to a deferred payment).

If you are happy to continue to pay the care fees yourself, and can afford to do this for as long as your Mum is in the home, then there would be no reason to place a charge on the house and the LA wouldn't need to carry out a full financial assessment on your Mum. The potential problems would come when/if you can no longer fund your Mum's care. Her property would still be considered an asset by the LA. If your Mum did apply to the LA for financial help they would be looking at when the charge was placed on the property, who by, and the reason for this. The fact that you placed the charge on shortly after her going into care, when you were aware that she needed the asset to fund her care fees, may well look like a deliberate attempt at deprivation of assets.

Most people would rather not have to sell a home to pay for care costs (I'm shortly going to have to sell a house that has been in the family for over 90 years to pay care home fees) but unfortunately that's the way it is. What will you do with her home if it isn't sold and who will pay the on-going maintenance costs? If there is any possibility that your Mum might need to seek financial assistance from the LA at some point in the future to pay for her care I think you need to seek legal advice to talk through the implications of placing the charge on the property.

 

[Paul A]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, mum does have a property separate from the 'granny flat' at my home. My logic on placing the charge ( rightly or wrongly) is I have the first charge, therefore, if it comes to it, I would have to agree to the LA placing a charge on the property - as the money is owed to me - first like a mortgage. I suspect it would depend if the LA want to fight me? I would never put my mother at risk, however, I won't simply roll over and let them make my mum pay for something I believe the NHS should pay for. But, that's a different issue!!

 

[Bod]

I foresee you getting into "deprivation of assets" problems.
The Local Authority will merely assume she has the money, and step back. NHS via the CHC funding will not be interested unless she meets some serious criteria.(Literally deaths door even then maybe not)

Bod

 

[Louise7]

My logic on placing the charge ( rightly or wrongly) is I have the first charge, therefore, if it comes to it, I would have to agree to the LA placing a charge on the property - as the money is owed to me - first like a mortgage.

Placing a charge on the property doesn't prevent it from being sold to pay your Mum's care fees though (the same as a mortgage wouldn't prevent it from being sold). The LA would not place a charge on a property unless a deferred payment was requested, and if a deferred payment isn't in place the property will be treated as an asset. The LA won't have to 'fight you' - they'd just treat your Mum as having assets and include the value of the property (less your charge if deemed acceptable) when calculating whether they will pay towards her care costs. Does anyone have financial power of attorney for your Mum?

 

[Kevinl]

I can foresee more than a deprivation of assets problem.
Let's say mum's house is worth £100k (keeping the figures simple) and you have a charge on it that you can prove amounts to £25k, the she still has an asset worth £75k, well over the £23k limit so she's self funding, the charge on the property is irrelevant other than it means she probably can't get a DPA so loses the 12 week disregard so have to pay for 3 months care she could avoid without the charge.
The "granny annex" on your property is that listed as a separate house for council tax purposes, do it have its own way in not through the house, its own cooking and bathing facilities and all the other criteria or is it just an extension to your home you're designating asd her space?
The LA don't need to " fight" you they just do a financial assessment and as long as the total of the debt your mum owes you and the £23k funding limit Is a positive amount then she's a self funder, if you refuse to let her do a DPA then it'll cost 12 weeks more and anyway once they do a financial assessment in line with the rules of the 2014 Care Act it's for you to fight them if you don't agree with their findings not for them to fight you, they're holding the purse strings.
A care home won't take a resident without a contract and if the LA refuse to sign one then it's up to you to sign it or keep her at home.
It's a creative and original piece of thinking and I do wish you success, but I don't think that's going to happen, if the LA dig their heels in then you'll more than likely have to reconsider the wisdom of this course of action.
K

 

[jenniferpa]

To be honest, I'm not sure why you took this approach rather than getting your mother to cover her expenses while she was living with you at the time the expenses were incurred. Can I ask why you did it this way?

 

[Sirena]

TI won't simply roll over and let them make my mum pay for something I believe the NHS should pay for. But, that's a different issue!!

If your mother needs care which has to be carried by a medical professional, as far as I know the NHS would cover that. But the problem for most of us is that our PWDs need personal and social care, which is not in the NHS remit.

 

[katydid]

This is a major problem for us all
We have our own home which has been a major struggle both to acquire and to keep
The mortgage has 2 more years to go, and we really hope to end up up owning it!
In order to acquire the house, after losing our first one due to ill health, my own and that of my disabled son, which meant I had to stop work to look after him for several years, When I went back to work, my youngest son gave us money for a deposit and has made payments over the last 12 years to help us survive.
Now that my husband has Vascular Dementia, the fear of losing the house haunts me,
First David’s money, and the fact that there will be nothing left for Chris, his accident caused brain damage and we planned to leave some money in trust for him who we are gone.
You can imagine how I feel, my husband is aggressive, and very hard to handle at times, he rarely sleeps, and I cannot take my eyes off him.
My eldest son, struggles to cope with seeing his father like this, and I struggle with the thought of letting my youngest son, and other members of the family who have helped with money so that we could have our own home again after a terribly traumatic time.
We have no other resources and at times I feel despair
Has anyone else had a similar situation of shared ownership?

 

[Louise7]

Hello katydid. Are you worried about having to sell the house to pay for your husband's care? If the house is jointly owned and you remain living in it it you won't have to sell it. Care costs will be funded out of your husband's assets/income only, not yours, and the house will be safe. This leaflet explains about paying for care: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/legal-financial/who-pays-care

 

[witts1973]

This is a major problem for us all
We have our own home which has been a major struggle both to acquire and to keep
The mortgage has 2 more years to go, and we really hope to end up up owning it!
In order to acquire the house, after losing our first one due to ill health, my own and that of my disabled son, which meant I had to stop work to look after him for several years, When I went back to work, my youngest son gave us money for a deposit and has made payments over the last 12 years to help us survive.
Now that my husband has Vascular Dementia, the fear of losing the house haunts me,
First David’s money, and the fact that there will be nothing left for Chris, his accident caused brain damage and we planned to leave some money in trust for him who we are gone.
You can imagine how I feel, my husband is aggressive, and very hard to handle at times, he rarely sleeps, and I cannot take my eyes off him.
My eldest son, struggles to cope with seeing his father like this, and I struggle with the thought of letting my youngest son, and other members of the family who have helped with money so that we could have our own home again after a terribly traumatic time.
We have no other resources and at times I feel despair
Has anyone else had a similar situation of shared ownership?

Wishing you all the best,you have had your fair share of troubles,I hope everything works out ok with your home xx

 

[Paul A]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice. Having taken a view on all of them, the bottom line seems pretty certain - I or my mum will have to pay for her care because of her assets
(cash or otherwise) are over £23,000.

The CHC funding seems to be only when you multiple conditions then that's not even a certainty. However, if my mothers was a raging drug haggled alcoholic she would be getting it paid for. Something is so wrong here.

 

[Kikki21]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice. Having taken a view on all of them, the bottom line seems pretty certain - I or my mum will have to pay for her care because of her assets
(cash or otherwise) are over £23,000.

The CHC funding seems to be only when you multiple conditions then that's not even a certainty. However, if my mothers was a raging drug haggled alcoholic she would be getting it paid for. Something is so wrong here.

I couldn’t agree with you more about this issue. When my mum was CHC assessed, you could tell the assessor’s criteria was not to get people to have CHC funding. My mum had multiple conditions with her dementia & a consultant had told us she had weeks & months to live but somehow that was disregarded.
My mum died 2 days ago so basically just over a year since the assessment. It’s my belief now that she should have been placed on an end of life pathway. I know I can’t bring her back but I do intend to put up a battle with how this all panned out.
Oh & the care home did not provide me with a contract until November so I did not do anything either with that either. Good luck in your battle. I see your point of view completely.

The criteria for funding was also due to change but due to all the Brexit palava, where is this change? It is has all gone quiet. This change would have made the levels increase of how much money councils can take from you.

 

[padmag]

Many thanks for all your comments and advice. Having taken a view on all of them, the bottom line seems pretty certain - I or my mum will have to pay for her care because of her assets
(cash or otherwise) are over £23,000.

The CHC funding seems to be only when you multiple conditions then that's not even a certainty. However, if my mothers was a raging drug haggled alcoholic she would be getting it paid for. Something is so wrong here.

I know that I have come on to this thread late, but has your Mum gone through the initial check list to see if she might be eligible for CHC? I know the CHC process is a long weary road but if you have the stamina it's worth a try. We (my sister and I) have got Mum through the checklist but she was borderline (the assessors view) on eligibility therefore failed. We have now taken the view that Mum's assets will only last a couple of years and that may not be enough time, so we are employing a no win no fee solicitor to appeal as they know the law far better than we do. I'm afraid I cannot stand by and let the powers walk all over us without a fight. We have nothing to lose as they will take almost everything anyway and then Mum will have to move care homes because she is at a band 5 Nursing home presently, which costs over 5k per month, and the LA will not pay that fee.

 

[Louise7]

we are employing a no win no fee solicitor to appeal as they know the law far better than we do.

Out of interest, how would that work? If successful will they take a percentage of any backdated CHC payments, or of future projected payments? I'm aware of the no win no fee concept with regards compensation payments but this scenario is different so curious to know how it would actually work in practice.

 

[canary]

We have nothing to lose as they will take almost everything anyway and then Mum will have to move care homes because she is at a band 5 Nursing home presently, which costs over 5k per month, and the LA will not pay that fee.

Even if you got CHC, would it pay that amount? As far as I am aware CHC has an upper limit too.

 

[padmag]

Out of interest, how would that work? If successful will they take a percentage of any backdated CHC payments, or of future projected payments? I'm aware of the no win no fee concept with regards compensation payments but this scenario is different so curious to know how it would actually work in practice.

Yes they take a percentage of care home fees already paid, and going forward they take a percentage of 4 months' future payments. It is a chunk of money but if it means that Mum's care isn't in jeopardy then it's worth it. I'm aware it could fail or CHC be granted then withdrawn. Not for everyone I know.

 

[padmag]

Even if you got CHC, would it pay that amount? As far as I am aware CHC has an upper limit too.

I don't know the answer to that, but there are only a limited number of care homes that would take Mum with her needs, and they are all band 5 nursing with similar rates. I hope that she would not have to move. The care home previous to this said they could not cope with her. Between a rock and a hard place really as Mum's funds won't last very long. So either way she will need to be funded - I thought her funds would last 2 years but with her care home increasing their costs this year, and I forgot to take into account the asset limit, so in reality it may be only 18 months.

 

[Elle3]

I don't know the answer to that, but there are only a limited number of care homes that would take Mum with her needs, and they are all band 5 nursing with similar rates. I hope that she would not have to move. The care home previous to this said they could not cope with her. Between a rock and a hard place really as Mum's funds won't last very long. So either way she will need to be funded - I thought her funds would last 2 years but with her care home increasing their costs this year, and I forgot to take into account the asset limit, so in reality it may be only 18 months.

Just so you know, my dad’s care home fees were approx £1300 per week, which was above the CHC rate. The CHC team initially contacted me regarding this, but agreed dad was settled in his current care home, so they would see what they could do. It took about a month, but it was escalated to the CCG Assistant Director and he agreed to the higher rate funding. So what I’m saying, it is possible to get them to pay more, you just have to dig your heels in if you do manage to get them to agree to CHC funding eligibility.

 

[padmag]

Just so you know, my dad’s care home fees were approx £1300 per week, which was above the CHC rate. The CHC team initially contacted me regarding this, but agreed dad was settled in his current care home, so they would see what they could do. It took about a month, but it was escalated to the CCG Assistant Director and he agreed to the higher rate funding. So what I’m saying, it is possible to get them to pay more, you just have to dig your heels in if you do manage to get them to agree to CHC funding eligibility.

Thanks Elle3. I do know that in Mum's care home there are residents (quite a few) who have 1 to 1 care which must be very expensive to fund, and are NHS funded, as their relatives have informed me of this. Mum doesn't need 1 to 1 but it just goes to show what is possible funding wise.