LPA and concerns about my mother's finances

[sgg123]

Hello everyone,

It's my first time on a forum like this and I would really appreciate some advice regarding my mother who has been recently diagnosed with early stages of dementia.

I have been advised by doctors to prepare LPA's with and for mum, which myself and my sister are in the process of doing.

Mum is in receipt of a pension in addition to a rental income from a second property.

The complicating and distressing issue for us is that one of mum's granddaughters (my sister's eldest daughter, currently 20 years old) is now reducing mum's account to zero every month by asking her to transfer money to her account by telephone banking. She is doing this by calling my mum and making emotional pleas for money based on her and her partner not being able to work, needing money for her child etc.

The granddaughter is ignoring pleas from the family to stop what she is doing, and has essentially cut off communications. Confronting my mother about the issue is useless as she seems unaware of the gravity of what she is doing, plus it's both distressing and heartbreaking for us as all she says is that she wants to do is 'help' her grandaughter, that it's 'the last time it will happen' and that it's up to her what she does - which of course - it is.

Mum is at the point where she has no money left in her current account where her pension is deposited because it has all been transferred to the granddaughter, so she is walking into the bank where the rental income is deposited, taking hundreds of pounds out in cash, walking it over to her current account bank where she will deposit it and continue to feed it to the granddaughter.

Whilst I understand that we can register and enact an LPA according to a post in this forum, mum is of course perfectly entitled and able to walk into the bank and continue what she is doing. Are we powerless in this situation to a) hold the granddaughter to account? b) protect my mother from what we see as financial abuse?

If we enacted a registered LPA and then squirrelled this money away, would we then be potentially be seen as being tarred with the same brush as the granddaughter? We've tried thus far, with mum's consent, to set up a standing order on the rental account to split the money 3 ways each month between me, sister and mum to try and limit the impact of what is happening but this lasted about 1 month because mum just walked in and took cash out the account, which then ran the risk of the standing orders bouncing - causing more grief for mum.

Any help and advice you can offer would be gratefully received.

 

[Juniorjunior]

This advice is very much from an outsiders stand point and not family standpoint.
It sounds very much like your mum is being financially abused by her granddaughter. This can be reported to social services and or police to conduct an investigation. I would emphasis abuse of a vulnerable adult with variable abilities to reason and process consequences. This may not end in criminal charges as if your mum is deemed to have capacity to understand her decisions and consequences of those decisions they can't action anything. However, the authorities may chose to speak with her granddaughter formally which maybe enough to stop this behaviour.
Can you cancel phone bank access for the account. Can you put a limit on withdrawals. Can you block granddaughters telephone number on your mums phone. Sounds like you may already had a conversation with your mum about changes in managing money so keep at it and enact power of attorney asap with bank and explore options. Can your mum have a prepaid cash card which she could s use for her spend I g but would not be accessible to granddaughter.
I would encourage action on this as unlikely to stop if her granddaughter has easy access to money and no guilt at her actions. Of course I do not know any of your family circumstances and can only comment objectively.

 

[marionq]

I had similar with the grandson of my husbands brother. I could not get my husband to stop giving this guy money as he was so convincing and my husband lost track of what he was giving him. I was able eventually to limit it by taking away his bank cards and just giving my husband small amounts in his wallet. However the final straw which ended it was reporting it to the police who gave this guy a warning.

 

[Slugsta]

The other issue is that, by giving away her money like this, your mother could be in trouble if she needs assessing regarding paying for care (day or residential) in the future. The Local Authority could well treat her as if she still had this money and want payment for services provided. Would telling the granddaughter this stop her from taking more money, do you think? I doubt that explaining that would make any difference to your mum, even if she remembered what you had said!

 

[sgg123]

Thank you everyone for all your responses, it's really invaluable getting all this information and getting a bit of clarity from outside.

I think we have no other option but to proceed with reporting the issue to social services/police and hopefully some good comes from it.

We are also now drafting the LPAs. Regarding the points some of you have made on limiting mum's access e.g. limits on withdrawals, cancelling telephone banking access. Surely it is in the gift of mum to reinstate these things if she wishes? Or, when we speak to the bank would they be proactive in questioning mum or us if she walked into the bank and challenged these restrictions?

Another option we thought was withdrawing money from the accounts ourselves so that it would be out of harms way - but I assume that this would not be in the spirit of the LPA?

 

[Bod]

That would be in the full spirit of the LPA.
You are working in her best interests.

Bod

 

[Fullticket]

I agree with Bod, take the money out of her account and set up a new account that the granddaughter has no access to. Your mother's money will be safe and, what is more, can be accounted for. There is nothing to worry about you making proper use of the money - you are making proper use of the money. If the granddaughter can be seen to be taking money - whether this is given willingly or not - there is an amount that the courts/HM Insp of taxes will allow as gifts. If it is exceeding this amount, then the tax office will have something to say about what she is receiving and ensuring that the proper tax is paid on it.

 

[marionq]

Remove the money into a separate account which she can’t access but you can produce if necessary. My experience was one of the most distressing parts of Johns illness so you have my sympathy. I will also warn you against another possibility. Johns scammer tried to get him to sign a bank form as guarantor of a bank account as the scammer wasn’t able to get one due to previous debt. Fortunately on that occasion John brought the form back to me. I lived on the edge wondering what he would try next. I have evil thoughts about his scammer on a daily basis which is not my normal behaviour!!

 

[sgg123]

It's just that I note this statement on the OPG website:

Looking after money and property
You must keep the donor’s finances separate from your own, unless you’ve already got something in both of your names like a joint bank account or you own a home together.

If we moved the money to an account that mum was named on - my fear is that the issue would just repeat.

 

[Helly68]

I had reason to ring our local elder safeguarding abuse line - they deal with abuse of all kinds, including financial, and they were very helpful and understanding

 

[Juniorjunior]

The experience I had with mums bank was very positive but I did have poa in place when dealing with them.
I would try and make an appointment with branch, take any evidence you have on application for poa and explain situation. They may not be able to fully resolve without the legal powers but they also have a duty of care to protect their customers. I have always been lucky in my dealings that if I was clear in my expression of concerns regarding vulnerabilities companies would try and work with me in reaching a solution. As I said it may be impossible to resolve without full poa powers but worth a try.

 

[canary]

If we moved the money to an account that mum was named on - my fear is that the issue would just repeat.

You could use the POA to open an account at a different bank - one that your mum doesnt know about, but could be monitored bu you using online banking.. She then wouldnt know to go there for money

 

[jenniferpa]

The normal procedure is for the account be to be named something like "Attorney account for Mrs A Smith" or something to that effect: in other words your mother wouldn't be able to access the account yet it is clearly for her benefit.

 

[concerned4]

You have my sympathies with this & sadly it is only going to get worse until the OPG starts to pursue those that have done wrong & bring them to book, my sibling along with her children withdrew sums regularly from dad's account, to the tune of over £200k over a 6 year period, the OPG asked my sibling to resign , which she did, the potential was highlighted to LA along with OPG early in 2013, finally OPG took action but it was over 3 years too late after dad's card was used in USA whilst dad was in UK, my niece had a card to access dad's account, the Guardian appointed by Sherriff Court acknowledges this but to date has done nothing. Wish you well in your endeavours, the main point is whether the person has capacity to act, dad was assessed by consultant in 2013 & deemed to have capacity, sibling then manipulated dad to have POA revoked from myself, in 2017 I asked consultant after having a meeting with him, how long did you assess dad for reply was 20 minutes, the assessment should be over a longer period. But for me in hindsight should have challenged decision re capacity but did not want to aggravate dad's condition.

 

[Jowan]

My understanding is that you absolutely must not transfer your mum's money to your own accounts when you have LPA, except if you are paying money to yourselves for certain reasons - out of pocket expenses, for example. Once you have LPA, you can set up a new account in her name, but one that she can't access. Meantime, this is arguably abuse, and you probably should do whatever you can to protect your mum.

 

[sgg123]

Thank you all again for all your support here. We made the 4 hour round trip at the weekend to collect all the signatures for the LPAs and will look to post them off today. The issue of the granddaughter obviously needs to be addressed. To be honest I would prefer it if we could treat this issue via the restrictions we can put in place via the banks with the LPA, but we also realise that this will take time, so more immediate and hard hitting action as per your suggestions might be the only option. It's just sad, because one of the emotional casualties from this will be mum when she learns what has had to happen in order to stop this abuse happening.

 

[sgg123]

Hello again all,

We've now been processing all the info, consequences etc. I've even spoken to the granddaughter in question briefly for the first time in a couple of years when she called mum's house whilst I was visiting. A rather practical and to the point conversation to discount her excuses, make her aware of how angry the family are and that it stops now and any further communication goes through me. ANY money disappearing from mum's account without my prior knowledge will have consequences etc. (I didn't mention investigation/police/social services - perhaps I should have). Anyway - if she does it again I guess the decision is then made for me.

One thought the whole family has had is the notion of transferring the second property asset from mum over to me and sister 50/50 so that we remove that risk from the equation. I have made an initial enquiry with our solicitor and the transfer itself seems relatively simple - the solicitor would of course have to see mum to ensure she is aware of what the transaction means and the outcome.

This seemed like a good option - as mum will still have her primary home in her name where she lives. However, having subsequently looked at posts here, this now makes me slightly nervous because of how it might look, despite our honest intentions.

Is anyone able to advise us?

 

[Beate]

No, I'm sorry but you can't do that. That would be classed deprivation of assets, even with all the good intentions behind it. Any money your mother has needs to stay in her own name, and the granddaughter needs to be dealt with the correct way, if she doesn't stop.

 

[jenniferpa]

I think that would be extremely unwise of you, to be honest. While you could say that you are acting in the best interests of your mother as her attorney, you are also benefiting you. Your best option is to use the LPA (when it's registered) to have the rental monies deposited in an account that you and the other attorney control on behalf of your mother. Further, as attorneys you actually couldn't do this without applying for an order from the COP I don't think. This because the Trustee Act would require someone else (not either of you) to act on behalf of your mother.

 

[sgg123]

I thought as much. Thanks Beate. I can completely see that.