Thats a good idea
AFAIK it wont make any difference - they are only interested in who is driving it. But it wont hurt to check.
Deprivation of assets - what to do?
- Thread starter Jim52
- Start date
That sounds like a great solution!
Do you think getting a lawyer to draft something up and witness the signing would make it even more concrete or is that OTT?
Agreed sounds great.
Thanks again for all the reply, very much appreciated.
If you fill in the DVLA form you are changing the registered keeper. Usually the owner is the registered keeper too, but not always. The registered keeper is the person who is the main driver. It is required for insurance purposes and to implement driving/parking violations. In @Jim52 s case, though his dad cannot be the registered keeper as he does not have a license.
Getting someone else to witness your signature might be a good idea, but my feeling (and I dont have legal training) is that you dont need a solicitor.
Im basing this on a DIY POA requirement - you have to get someone else to witness the signature, but it doesnt have to be a solicitor. If its OK for a POA, I should think it would be OK for this.
I'm assuming that your father wasn't left broke by the purchase in which case...
It doesn't matter whose name is on the paperwork... In fact having your father's name on it could complicate life further down the road. Keep life simple.
Don't make it into something complicated there's absolutely no need. If it's a necessary item for your father's quality of life, well being and care no one is going to question it. Just keep receipts for the purchase etc. And keep all paperwork.
If you are going to use it a lot for personal use and you are already paying the insurance and the fuel then add the receipts to the car documentation you file away.... but keep it simple. Work out a division of payment and stick to it.
As your father doesn't sound like he's too far down the dementia path the car will probably be extremely useful for him and hopefully last the course. I'm assuming that you and your brother are going to be involved in his care to some degree.
I think it's fairly easy to understand when someone is taking the financial micky or not...
Juggling finances so there's a balance between quality of life and sufficient to not have to rely on the dismal offerings of the state is really difficult because dementia is one of those 'how long is a piece of string' situations.
Don't get too hung up about it but be aware that choices further down the line do, to some degree, depend on money, sadly.
It doesn't matter whose name is on the paperwork... In fact having your father's name on it could complicate life further down the road. Keep life simple.
Don't make it into something complicated there's absolutely no need. If it's a necessary item for your father's quality of life, well being and care no one is going to question it. Just keep receipts for the purchase etc. And keep all paperwork.
If you are going to use it a lot for personal use and you are already paying the insurance and the fuel then add the receipts to the car documentation you file away.... but keep it simple. Work out a division of payment and stick to it.
As your father doesn't sound like he's too far down the dementia path the car will probably be extremely useful for him and hopefully last the course. I'm assuming that you and your brother are going to be involved in his care to some degree.
I think it's fairly easy to understand when someone is taking the financial micky or not...
Juggling finances so there's a balance between quality of life and sufficient to not have to rely on the dismal offerings of the state is really difficult because dementia is one of those 'how long is a piece of string' situations.
Don't get too hung up about it but be aware that choices further down the line do, to some degree, depend on money, sadly.
Similar thing. My dad bought himself a car shortly before diagnosis which he then gave to my daughter so that she could drive him around when she wasn’t at work. We’d been struggling with just my car as it couldn’t be in 2 places at once and dad’s was just sitting on his driveway as he’d lost confidence in driving. This was about 4 years before he had his financial assessment done in September this year.
We were never asked about the car and the council only wanted to see 3 months statements and asked if he’d given away large amounts of cash in the last 4 years. No questions about how he’d spent his money. I never thought about the car!
Dad still owns the car, my daughter is it’s registered keeper and still uses it.
Dad is now in a carehome.
We were never asked about the car and the council only wanted to see 3 months statements and asked if he’d given away large amounts of cash in the last 4 years. No questions about how he’d spent his money. I never thought about the car!
Dad still owns the car, my daughter is it’s registered keeper and still uses it.
Dad is now in a carehome.
The local authority may never come asking about it, but they seem to be becoming more "picky" and the problem is that the paperwork when the car was bought shows @Jim52 as the owner, not just the registered keeper
I cant see that it will do any harm printing out a letter saying that Jim52 is passing the ownership of the car over to his dad, both he and his dad signing and dating it and the signatures being witnessed by a non-family witness. It wont take a lot of effort, all the paperwork will be straight just in case someone comes looking, and it will, I think, put Jim52s mind at ease
I cant see that it will do any harm printing out a letter saying that Jim52 is passing the ownership of the car over to his dad, both he and his dad signing and dating it and the signatures being witnessed by a non-family witness. It wont take a lot of effort, all the paperwork will be straight just in case someone comes looking, and it will, I think, put Jim52s mind at ease
Dad had bought a new (second hand) car just before he was diagnosed and unable to drive anymore. We were going to sell it but we'd have lost money on it so he said i should have it. We changed the registration to my name and i pay the insurance and all other costs , effectively its mine now but without it i wouldn't be able to visit him everyday. At our financial assessment i told them this and they asked how much it was worth , when i said we'd only get 3 or £4000 if it were sold they were happy to ignore it . If i didn't have the car and couldn't be his carer the alternative would have been a care home as he's not on a bus route.
If the person with dementia is the legal owner (as per the paperwork when they buy it) then even if they get someone else to drive it - eg by giving it to a relative - and that person becomes the registered keeper, it doesnt change that the PWD is still the legal owner and the car therefore remains their asset. If the car is still their legal asset and is used for their benefit, then there has been no deprivation of assets.
The problem here is that the PWD is not the legal owner, although he paid over £10,000 for it. So, on paper it looks like he gave this money to @Jim52 so that Jim could buy himself a brand new car. I know that this was not the intention, but the LA is becoming increasingly more picky as they get more strapped for cash and they might just decide that Jims dad had given him a gift of £10,000. They might not, of course, but its a bit of a grey area, which is why @Normaleila suggested that Jim signs the ownership (not the register keeper) over to his dad so that his dad is the legal owner - which is what should have happened in the first place.
There seems to be some confusion on here about the difference between being the legal owner and being the registered keeper.
The problem here is that the PWD is not the legal owner, although he paid over £10,000 for it. So, on paper it looks like he gave this money to @Jim52 so that Jim could buy himself a brand new car. I know that this was not the intention, but the LA is becoming increasingly more picky as they get more strapped for cash and they might just decide that Jims dad had given him a gift of £10,000. They might not, of course, but its a bit of a grey area, which is why @Normaleila suggested that Jim signs the ownership (not the register keeper) over to his dad so that his dad is the legal owner - which is what should have happened in the first place.
There seems to be some confusion on here about the difference between being the legal owner and being the registered keeper.
Firstly, thanks for all the replies all your advice is very much appreciated.
I have talked to the DVLA and as expected their position is clear they are not interested as it doesn't involve the registered keeper, however I've had it confirmed that the insurance would need to be changed to reflect any ownership change which means a new policy due to the fact we're not spouses they cant amend the current one.
I'm now looking into how best to draft an ownership change document and get the ball rolling once its been thoroughly discussed with Dad and my brother.
This has certainly been a learning experience and I just wish we'd known all the issues this may cause in the future and have been better informed, you certainly live and learn.
I have talked to the DVLA and as expected their position is clear they are not interested as it doesn't involve the registered keeper, however I've had it confirmed that the insurance would need to be changed to reflect any ownership change which means a new policy due to the fact we're not spouses they cant amend the current one.
I'm now looking into how best to draft an ownership change document and get the ball rolling once its been thoroughly discussed with Dad and my brother.
This has certainly been a learning experience and I just wish we'd known all the issues this may cause in the future and have been better informed, you certainly live and learn.
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Just a little update, we looked further into changing ownership and really a concern we have is that this may look unintentionally suspicious so I phoned the Alzheimer Society helpline who were excellent and I cant praise them enough for the guidance.
They do not believe even as things are this would tick all the boxes necessary for deprivation because the car is being used to improve my dads well-being and help him fulfil his needs plus it may be years before an assessment is needed and timing is very important with such things.
The nice lady also pointed out that the burden of proof is on the LA to show deliberate deprivation had occurred and it can be difficult. She mentioned that if my dad had capacity at the time when the car was purchased which he did then the LA cant tell him how he should spend his money just because he has been diagnosed with Alzheimer which is something I never really took into consideration.
So I've come full circle I guess and it sounds like it may just be better to continue as is and if or when the time comes for an assessment present the LA with logs of journeys in the car and explain the car is and has remained my dads asset throughout and bought for his well-being even although he’s not technically the owner on the paperwork, which we're still kicking ourselves about.
Again thanks for all the advice Talking Point is a really great resource!
They do not believe even as things are this would tick all the boxes necessary for deprivation because the car is being used to improve my dads well-being and help him fulfil his needs plus it may be years before an assessment is needed and timing is very important with such things.
The nice lady also pointed out that the burden of proof is on the LA to show deliberate deprivation had occurred and it can be difficult. She mentioned that if my dad had capacity at the time when the car was purchased which he did then the LA cant tell him how he should spend his money just because he has been diagnosed with Alzheimer which is something I never really took into consideration.
So I've come full circle I guess and it sounds like it may just be better to continue as is and if or when the time comes for an assessment present the LA with logs of journeys in the car and explain the car is and has remained my dads asset throughout and bought for his well-being even although he’s not technically the owner on the paperwork, which we're still kicking ourselves about.
Again thanks for all the advice Talking Point is a really great resource!
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