Phone scams

[Netty]

Hello, my mother was contacted by telephone 2 weeks ago by a "company" selling her a holiday that she didn't want. She, despite having problems remembering things like her telephone number and date of birth etc, gave them all her details from her card, her name, address, dob - everything.

We contacted the bank when she told us what had happened and had the card stopped. The money (just over £480) had already gone into a "holding account" ready for the company to take it out.

Cut a long story short, the company didn't take out the money as expected within the necessary 10 working days, which was up yesterday. However, another "company" (the same people under a different name? or someone they passed her details onto?) tried to take out £484.36 the day after the card was stopped. It hasn't gone out of her account because of the stop on the card, though I'd assume its come out of the bank so we'll all pay in one way or another. Now the police are involved.

My question is, how do we try and stop this happening again? The bank said there was a limit on the card, which happened to be around the amount they tried to take and there was no way they could reduce this amount, as that was what cards guarantee. So she would still stand to lose nearly £500 if she did it again.

We have got a lasting power of attourney drawn up, but its not been registered as my mother would go ballistic if we tried to do that, and take over her affairs! And she won't hear of not having a card. She doesn't think or doesn't want to admit she has a problem. But after checking her bank balance for the past two weeks to see if the money had gone, she informs me it was because she has been waiting to see how this problem with the Bradford and Bingly was going to affect her. She has never even been with the B&B!!!If it wasn't so serious and so upsetting, it would be funny.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Annette x

 

[julieann15]

Tps

Hi Annette
we have registered mum's number with telephone preference service- can be done online- just needs valid email address to activate- this stops most calls in a week to a fortnight- this might be a starter for you- others will be online later who may be able to offer more specific advice re cards/banks etc.

Welcome to TP

Julie xx

 

[Skye]

Hi Annette

Julie's right, this is the link:

http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/

Unfortunately, though, it only applies to calls from the UK, so you still get calls from call centres abroad.

You can do the same for mail:

http://www.mpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/

 

[gigi]

Hello Annette...

I've done all of this....

In spite of that we still have phone calls saying we've won a holiday...or offering fantastic investment opportunities....yesterday I had to slam the phone down on some chap from America who would not give up....

Also "Prize Draws"....Eric used to sneak off to phone the numbers..at about £15 a time...in spite of me telling him not to do it....(He's passed that stage now)

I intercept mail now...and the sitter knows to do this..and has my permission to say Eric is not available if it's a phone call.
If anything does slip through the letterbox...and Eric gets there first....I remove it at the first opportunity and shred it...

But I'm living with my husband....

It must be so much more difficult in your situation.

Having said that..thanks Hazel...I'll use those links and perhaps refresh our details...and thanks Julie for suggesting it.

Love gigi xx

 

[jenny48]

Hi Annette

I also have call preference both for myself and mum, but I started getting calls again. I asked one person how they got my number and the reply was "the computer dials all nos consecutively and the call preference can't bar us". I must admit I lost it with them and put down the phone but thought afterwards its not their fault and surely BT should be held responsible and find some way to ban unwanted calls especially ones from these thieves, for the want of a better word, so I don't honestly know if it will work for you, but there is no other way that I know of, Luckily mum can't hear her phone anymore so she can't give any details. hope you find some way round it all.

Good luck

 

[BeckyJan]

Hello:
This can be a nightmnare - understand the tele. preference service can only apply to UK calls. If the 'scam' is from another country it will bypass the service. Not much help but a big beware. Will the bank issue a different card with differenct no. then you let her continue with the old one!! Devious I know but maybe the bank customer service will help, after all its in their interest.

I 'lost' David's card some time ago, just in case this sort of thing happened, but as Gigi says its a little easier when you are living with someone, not so easy fromn a distance.

The only comfort, this phase will pass.

Love Jan

 

[citybythesea]

This is one of my bigest pet peeves...phone soliciters! Your right Jenny alot of those calls are on a computer generated dialer that spits the first answered call to the first available operator. As for them not being able to take you off the list if you ever manage to answer the phone and get a live person ask for the manager and then request that person take your number off the list. I know in the US you can call block some numbers from your own phone for a fee each month and most governments now do have call registries that you can put your number on.

On a lighter side, try picking up a phone call from an 800 number (caller id verified) and no one be there. Before mom quit using the phone she would answer the phone and no one talk to her, it quite scared her and she felt she was being stalked.
I got to the point where I was racing to the phone so she wouldn't get to distraught with the "ghost" calls.

I also want to forewarn you on something else very similar. Shortly after mom died I got a phone call from a supposed bill collector. He had her name, address, date of birth, her social security number. She owed their company close to $45,000.00 dollars and had been making payments up until ..(just before she died). I listened and explained she had gone away for God. He informed me that they would be sending out a collection notice and that if it was not brought up to date they would collect from the estate, I said fine. Got their company name and address, by this time he was getting cross with me. I should just send the money because it could go on my credit report! Yeah right....not gonna happen. I informed him I had his number and an address. I also informed him that mom had AD before she died and that she had not had control over her affairs for close to 5 years. I also informed him I would be notifying my lawyer and the police. Click. I don't think I've ever been hung up on by a soliciter or a bill collector. I didn't drop it at that. I called my lawyer and told him what had happened he had me call the police who in turn had me call the state. (I felt like I was climbing a ladder!) 4 hours later I am talking to a government investigator and telling him the story. Gave him the phone number on the caller id, the address I was supposed to send the money to (P.O. box). He told me not to send the money and if I did get a bill forward it to him and he would check it out. A few weeks went by, I had put the call on the back burner in my mind, I get a bill. No nasty letter just a bill , very authentic, by this time moms estate was in probate and notices had been put out businesses to file with the lawyer handling it for me. Jack opened it, noticed it was a bill for mom so he just took it to the lawyer for me. (I was out of town) Several days go by and Im in his office to get a few things finished so I can move on to the next step. He asks me if I rembered the name of the company that had called about the unkind amount of money mom supposedly owed. I could barely remember the name, but finally did. Turns out he had been suspicious and researched the company. didn't pay the bill either. INstead I had the number of the investigator and ended up faxing him a copy of the bill. Don't know what will become of it, I know I'm not paying it. I have looked into moms credit report to see if anything looks suspicious and it doesn't. So I feel relatively safe with it.

The point I am trying to make is that for those of you still allowing your loved ones to handle it without your guidance...beware. I knew what may have been going on....you may not and end up paying a bill you didn't need to.


HUGS

Nancy

 

[JPG1]

You asked for suggestions, Annette, so here goes, with a few (feel free to ignore any single one of them, or even all of them, but they worked for us):

1. If the card is a ‘credit’ card that your Mum has, then it is very difficult to lower the limit – we know, we tried and failed. It is very easy for the bank to increase the limit without permission (“unless you tell us that you don’t want this increased credit limit”) which means “read the small print and then tell us you have read it and don’t want this increased limit”. Difficult, especially in the world of dementia. It is very difficult for anyone to lower the credit limit.

2. A ‘debit’ card, however, will only allow (correction: SHOULD only allow) a maximum debit to any one bank account, depending on the ‘healthy’ balance of that account, (or even its overdraft-limit) and depending on the already established limit, which is normally lower than a credit card limit. Can be £100 or £200, or thereabouts.

3. Both cards look and feel very similar, in terms of plastic-ness, in terms of ‘card-ness’ so the ‘difference’ between the two could always be explained as a “new, and very special new card”. Which is not a lie, nor even a white lie; just an explanation of the ‘different-ness’ of the new card from the old card. Different colour perhaps; different and special picture perhaps, or whatever comes to mind to explain the ‘different-ness’. Remembering the word ‘special card’.

4. Convenient “loss” of the old card, once the “new and special card” has arrived is a suggested manoeuvre. If asked, but if no questions come about the new and special card, then no explanations are needed.

5. There is (or was until last time we enquired and acquired one) something called a “pin suppressed card” (also called in some parts a ‘Chip and Signature’ card – both cards look the same; no cashier can tell the difference, until their display tells them to request a signature, as opposed to a pin number) which is enormously useful for those in the early stages of any dementia who cannot remember a pin number. It means it can be used to “shop”, often a passion, but without the need for a pin-number to be remembered. (Can we all have one, please? Probably.) But we have not checked recently to establish whether that ‘pin suppressed card’ is still available – it was then enormously useful, both in terms of ‘happy capable and coping with my own shopping’ and in terms of ‘happy not-needing-to-remember-a-pin-number’, which had previously caused much distress.

Main thing is that there is a difference between a ‘debit’ and a ‘credit’ card. Yes, anything charged via a debit card will be paid instantly (or thereabouts) but it will be a pre-defined limit and often a much more easily pre-defined limit, lower than a credit card.

This may be of interest, or of absolutely no interest to you, but it worked for us.

Jay G
PS. We never hang up on a “cold caller” trying to sell anything at all to us – be it ‘holiday won’ or ‘save on your utility bills’ ….. We always ask them “can you just hold on a moment, I’ve got to switch off the iron/let the cat out/stop the children fighting …. ” and then we put the phone to one side … come back later and replace handset! They’re paying for the call after all, not us!

 

[BeckyJan]

They’re paying for the call after all, not us!

That is not always true - if requested to press say 9 then its over to you at a very high rate. I suggest hanging up with a rude comment!!

display tells them to request a signature

Signature only debit cards are still available. But they are no deterrent to anyone requesting details over the telephone.

I do think you have to 'lose' the appropriate cards if you need to deter your Mother from using them over the telephone. Please discuss wth the Bank Manager - have you got POA? - that will help.

Jan

 

[JPG1]

If you don't hang up, and if you don't press 9 when invited to do so, then the charge is down to the caller, not to the receiver of the call.

Of course if you press 9 then it's over to you, but my PS was all about what "we" do, as non-dementia sufferers, not a reference to what anyone might be charged if they do indeed press 9, when invited to do so.

Signature debit cards are a deterrent to anyone requesting details over the phone ... for the very reason that a signature is required (or SHOULD be required by the bank to allow that transaction). And the limit is normally far lower than a credit card limit.

That is not always true - if requested to press say 9 then its over to you at a very high rate. I suggest hanging up with a rude comment!!



Signature only debit cards are still available. But they are no deterrent to anyone requesting details over the telephone.

I do think you have to 'lose' the appropriate cards if you need to deter your Mother from using them over the telephone. Please discuss wth the Bank Manager - have you got POA? - that will help.

Jan

 

[citybythesea]

I don't know if they do it over there, but the US does have a few choice banks (by that I mean they choose to allow for their patrons-not a mandated thing) that will put it into the system that only monthly debits (utility bills...other bills that may be ongoing and justly provided by the account holder) may be pulled, otherwise only checks may be used.

I would also suggest that you get caller id. On some systems you can print out the number and time. If you notice an area of time where it is becoming habit (mine are just before noon and about 8:00 in the evening) you can make it a point of turning off the phone, if possible.


A third suggestion is that your whole family sit down and explain the circumstances to her now while she may understand. Nip it in the bud before it gets to late.


HUgs

Nancy

 

[Sandy]

Hi Netty,

Another possibility is a prepaid card. These are relatively new and are generally used for cases where a fixed spending limit is desired - such as for teenagers.

You can read more about them here:

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/cards/prepaid-cards-guide1.asp

and here is a comparison chart:

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/prepaidcards/CardsResults.asp?feature=Prepaid&Type=CreditCard

But after checking her bank balance for the past two weeks to see if the money had gone, she informs me it was because she has been waiting to see how this problem with the Bradford and Bingly was going to affect her.

This is a perfect example of confabulation - creating a fictional reason to justify behaviour. In some ways, I am rather proud of my MIL when she is able to do this - it does show awareness of current events and a form of logic.

We have got a lasting power of attourney drawn up, but its not been registered as my mother would go ballistic if we tried to do that, and take over her affairs!

This problem with the holiday booking might not seem severe enough to you to register the LPA, given everything you know about your mum's situation. The question that might be worth considering is what sorts of things would be significant enough to get the LPA registered? Also, how would you know when those things were taking place?

Take care,

Sandy

 

[Tender Face]

Netty, I might sound cruel - but it was about the time I could not protect my mum from scams (whether 'door-to-door' or phone 'swines') I knew it was time for the EPA to be registered ..... at best I reckon we got away with mum 'losing' around £5000 ...... yup - couple of bits went off to the Police ...... other bits could never be traced ... looked at having 'call-barring' but it wouldn't work because it meant barring calls from say GP surgery etc .......

After registering EPA mum still retained all her cards ...... I admit I took a chance on her ever trying to use them and being upset when refused .... but if she had tried - I knew they were stopped and as EPA I had 'protected her' financially - even if I might have had the emotional fall out later. Couple of 'hiccups' I blamed it on the bank .......but mostly made sure she had enough cash always to not need her cards (COP might say that was irresponsible but hey ho!)

Being blunt ... and if your mum is worried about B&B for no apparent reason then it tells me she is no longer capable of her own financial affairs and you are going to have to bite the bullet to act 'responsibly' as required by any POA .......

Just thoughts, love Karen, x

 

[jenniferpa]

Signature debit cards are a deterrent to anyone requesting details over the phone ... for the very reason that a signature is required (or SHOULD be required by the bank to allow that transaction). And the limit is normally far lower than a credit card limit.

Chip and signature cards (debit or credit) can be used without a signature for telephone or online purchases - that's what that 3 or 4 digit security code on the signature block is used for -they are called card not present transactions. The problem is, that's for the protection of the vendor - to ensure a customer has the card in hand. It does nothing to protect the customer.

If you can swing it, I think Sandy's suggestion of a prepaid card might be worth it.

In the past I researched a product which you insert between the phone and the jack which only allows predetermined numbers to dial in. Didn't get around to purchasing it so can't speak to it's effectiveness. I'll see if it or something like it is still available.

 

[JPG1]

Ooops!

Ooops! So sorry, Jennifer, forgot to mention the 3 digit security code on the back of the card: we stuck a small label over security code on the back so that it was not visible, and the security code could then not be read and given out. It worked in our case. So we have since done it to our own cards too! (You hand your card to the restaurant-bod .... who may well read the security code and remember it and write it down, having meanwhile clocked and written down the card number. If you ever let your card out of your sight, that is.) But having said that, we use a separate card for telephone and online transactions and that card never leaves the house, so we haven’t needed to obscure the security code on the back.

With apologies for the oversight of mention of the security code on the back of the card.

Trying to stop ‘phone calls from scammers’ is like whistling in the wind – we are receiving 3-4 a week at the moment; all from abroad; all international/unidentified numbers. We have registered with mailing preference service and with telephone preference service, but still receive many calls from UK scammers and ‘gas/electricity companies’. They just ignore it, if they wish to. And if you can't obtain their number - which, of course, they never know, and by the time they've "gone to check with my manager", then they've invented another phone number! Or we've gone for a walk. The latest excuse we were given for them obtaining our phone number was from the “list of registered property owners!! Oh really??

Perhaps Karen/Tender Face has assessed the situation correctly: if you are seriously concerned, Netty/Annette, about your Mum’s ability to handle her finances, then it may be the time to think about registering the LPA. Like Karen, we replaced the "useful" card with a supermarket loyalty card - and it was never noticed, because as long as there was cash in the purse it was never needed. Keeping a ‘useful’ wad of cash in the purse worked for some of us.

There is nothing worse than an empty purse. As any woman knows. And as any man knows too, if he otherwise has to pick up the tab!

 

[jenniferpa]

Don't ever think that hiding or otherwise removing the 3 digit code will protect you from an unscrupulous vendor. True a responsible online or telephone merchant will not accept a "card not present" transaction without it, so your card will not be used to purchase a wide-screen TV from Amazon for example. However if the vendor themselves are dishonest then the card can be used - they're not interested in protecting themselves against loss just in ripping you off for as much money as possible before the well dries up. In Annette's case, removing the 3 digit code would have done no good at all.

 

[Netty]

Thank you all so very much for your replies.

Sandy, the pre paid card is not something I have heard of, but sounds interesting. I'll look into it, thanks.

To everyone else, yes, several of you are quite correct in saying that she probably is not now able to manage her own financial affairs. The problem is, that while she still had some ability to argue with us, it really is going to be impossible for us to register the LPA and take over. You would not believe the problems we have had with just doing the paperwork with the solicitor recently. My once gentle and kind Mother has turned into a very aggressive person when things do not go "her" way.

Mum lives across the yard from us (we did a barn conversion for her, when we realised she really wasn't safe in her old home). The problem with this is that when she "goes off on one" its me that takes the brunt of it as I am the one here (my sisters live near but not that close!) and the worse thing for me is that when she's over here yelling abuse at me, my two 3 year old daughters whitness it also. I really can't do that to them, much as I love my mum dearly, I have to protect my daughters too.

Its a tough one!

 

[BeckyJan]

much as I love my mum dearly, I have to protect my daughters too.

At her best I am sure your Mum would agree with you wholeheartedly.
Good luck
Jan