Can I refuse a social services care package

Alex54

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
356
0
Newtown, Wales
I have just been informed that my OH must pay 100% for any care provided. Problem is we don't have any money and if we did I would arrange private care rather that use a care agency where I never know who or when they are coming.
So my question can social services force us to use an agency or can I struggle as best I can on my own?
 
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Casbow

Registered User
Sep 3, 2013
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Colchester
I have just been informed that my OH must pay 100% for any care provided. Problem is we don't have any money and if we did I would arrange private care rather that use a care agency where I never know who or when they are coming.
So my question can social services force us to use an agency or can I struggle as best I can on my own?
This doesn't make sense. For anyone to say you will not get the funding you have to have a financial assessment. Have you had that.? If you have more than 23,000 in savings you will have to pay a contribution. But you need to be assessed. Good luck.xx
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,064
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Salford
You can't be made to accept care unless there's a safeguarding issue and even then you can't be made to pay for it if you have no money.
As the LA are telling you you have to fund the care then they must have done a financial assessment on him (not you) and decided he has assets (excluding your private residence/home) otherwise they'd have to pay for the care package not him.
if they've decided he has to pay for 100% of the care package then either he has assets/income or they've got it wrong.
K
 

Rosettastone57

Registered User
Oct 27, 2016
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I have just been informed that my OH must pay 100% for any care provided. Problem is we don't have any money and if we did I would arrange private care rather that use a care agency where I never know who or when they are coming.
So my question can social services force us to use an agency or can I struggle as best I can on my own?

I feel a bit more information might be helpful for forum members . I'm just wondering....do you mean live in carers? Because social services won't pay for this in our area
 

Alex54

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
356
0
Newtown, Wales
either he has assets/income or they've got it wrong.
It is really complicated but in a nut shell our real home is abroad (moved out of the UK in 2003) but we are renting in the UK after a holiday in the UK and sudden illness meant we could not travel back. The local authority assumes our home is an asset which we can sell to pay for the care fees. If OH goes into a care home full time I would stop renting in UK and go back to our main home. The house has been on the market for over a year for much less than it is worth but no interest as Brexit has really killed the market! Social Services will not allow my OH to travel back to our home and it is too risky to try it.
 

Alex54

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
356
0
Newtown, Wales
This doesn't make sense. For anyone to say you will not get the funding you have to have a financial assessment. Have you had that.? If you have more than 23,000 in savings you will have to pay a contribution. But you need to be assessed. Good luck.xx
I was in two minds about starting this post as it does not make any sense - but then again that is the reality. I have spent to much time going round in circles trying to find an answer to the funding problem, our savings are below the limit and if I could sell our home abroad I would. Social Services have tried to help but are hitting a brick wall.
The real person losing out in all of this is my OH as well as myself as I have to worry about money as well as providing care.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
12,179
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London
It is an unusual situation, and I haven't come across it before. But as there is a property in the mix that you have already put on the market, how about you ask them about a Deferred Payment Agreement? This is usually something that comes into play when someone moves into a care home and their property is not sold straight away for whatever reason. It means that Social Services would fund the bill now and you would pay them back when the property is finally sold. It's basically a loan and it's not without interest, but it's better than not being able to afford the care or stopping it altogether.
 

la lucia

Registered User
Jul 3, 2011
592
0
I was in two minds about starting this post as it does not make any sense - but then again that is the reality. I have spent to much time going round in circles trying to find an answer to the funding problem, our savings are below the limit and if I could sell our home abroad I would. Social Services have tried to help but are hitting a brick wall.
The real person losing out in all of this is my OH as well as myself as I have to worry about money as well as providing care.

Hold on.... If the person who needs care is your partner and the home in the other country is the home you both lived in together AND there's no other property apart from this temporary ENFORCED rental, then you shouldn't be paying for care. Least of all domiciliary care.

I think you urgently need professional advice so perhaps ring the Alzheimers Society helpline first thing tomorrow. But the local authority shouldn't be able to both stop you returning home and then expect you to sell the home because you are not living in it.

Write the key points down before you phone so it's clear for the person you speak to but call ASAP here's the number 0300 222 11 22
 

la lucia

Registered User
Jul 3, 2011
592
0
I have just been informed that my OH must pay 100% for any care provided. Problem is we don't have any money and if we did I would arrange private care rather that use a care agency where I never know who or when they are coming.
So my question can social services force us to use an agency or can I struggle as best I can on my own?
Oh and to answer your original question yes, as long as you can manage you can do the caring yourself or hire who you want.

Best of luck with this it sounds like a bit of a nightmare for you.
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,064
0
Salford
You can only get a deferred payment when someone goes into care which doesn't seem to be the case here, the OP is asking about "care agencies" so it sounds like care at home to me.
A house is a "mandatory disregard" in a financial assessment as long as the person, their partner or another qualifying relative lives in it and here the house is abroad, and Alex and her partner are living in rented accommodation, it doesn't matter if the house is in the UK or not if it's not your principal private residence and you're not actually living there then it's not a disregard it is an asset.
As Normamella says it may also be that they don't regard you as being "habitually residents" of the UK as you own a house abroad, which you at least say you intend to return to so aren't residents of the UK but visitors in spite of your nationality.
K
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,064
0
Salford
Hold on.... If the person who needs care is your partner and the home in the other country is the home you both lived in together AND there's no other property apart from this temporary ENFORCED rental
I can only disagree, unless you actually live in the house then it's not a mandatory disregard wherever the house is located, you have to be physically living in it otherwise it's an asset.
The rental is not "ENFORCED" it's a lifestyle decision to move from the home abroad and to rent in the UK, anyone from anywhere could own a home abroad, come to the UK and rent then claim UK benefits hence the need to prove habitual residence.
My mother moved about 8 miles to live with me but I lived in a different LA/health authority and I had to prove she "habitually" lived with me and while she still owned a house (8 miles away) my LA said she was the other LA's problem and her LA said it was mine.
Even within the UK to get help you have to pass the residency test and owning a house anywhere can make the LA say it's not their problem.
I had to get my mum on the electoral register, registered with a doctor, have her benefits registered at my address and a few other things before my LA would accept her as their responsibility and not keep telling me physically living with me wasn't enough to qualify for help.
K
 

Lindy50

Registered User
Dec 11, 2013
5,242
0
Cotswolds
I think that what @Kevinl says makes a lot of sense - the care system is a bureaucratic one and has quite fixed eligibility rules.
What I don't understand from your posts @Alex54 is whether you and /or your OH intend to return to your home abroad if and when that becomes possible? I think you said you have it on the market? Does this mean that you intend to become fully resident in the UK? As @Kevinl says, the care situation could revolve around this issue.
All the best to you - what a nightmare for you!
Lindy xx

PS Having said this, I think you need expert advice so do please phone the helpline ASAP.
 

Alex54

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
356
0
Newtown, Wales
THANKS EVERYONE FOR THE REPLIES - they are highly appreciated.
I think you need expert advice so do please phone the helpline ASAP.
I have had lots of advice from various bodies including the Alzheimer's support worker. Apart from changing the rules regarding property held aboard there is little that can be done. What is annoying is that the rules are not consistent - for example for pension credit DWP ignores our home abroad as long as we are actively trying to sell it.
how about you ask them about a Deferred Payment
This is what social wants me to try, but the problem is our home is being used to fund the care. Lets assume that my OH can manage a year before needing a full time nursing home. At that point I would return back to our home abroad but with £26K owing. Our home would then be disregarded for funding and we would get 100% towards the nursing fees. However the advice we have had is that legally we would still owe for the fees already invoiced. I do not want to spend the rest of my life with a debt which I cannot pay, hanging around my neck.
 

marionq

Registered User
Apr 24, 2013
6,449
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Scotland
I can understand your situation as we too owned a house abroad (Spain) until 2010 but we also owned a flat here in Scotland. As prices collapsed in Spain I bit the bullet and sold it for considerably less than I could have got a few years earlier. We returned to Scotland and sold the flat and with funds from both bought the house we are in at present. Two years later my husband was diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

If we had not done so I would be in a situation very similar to you. I still encounter people buying their "dream" home abroad usually close to retirement without thinking through what happens if one or both become ill. The Spanish health care is very good and I know the French system is too but despite the many criticisms you will see on the forum the NHS in most parts of the U.K.will meet your immediate needs better than any other particularly when it comes to dementia. The sheer scale of dementia is the problem for most countries which is why funds are so difficult to access.

This doesn't solve where you are now of course and I gather you are renting your house abroad as you say it is funding current care to some extent. The LA will be taking the view you could do as I did and sell your house for much less. It's a tough thing to do but you might find its your only way out if you want to stay in the UK and start again.
 

Alex54

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
356
0
Newtown, Wales
sell your house for much less
The market in France is really depressed - we have spent well over £300k on our French home and it is on the market for £187k, if forced I reckon we would get £80k, but that means we would not have enough money to buy a property in the UK.

Personally I think dementia health care is better in France, and it was only because we were on holiday in the UK when the wife became ill that this whole problem arose.
 
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la lucia

Registered User
Jul 3, 2011
592
0
I can only disagree, unless you actually live in the house then it's not a mandatory disregard wherever the house is located, you have to be physically living in it otherwise it's an asset.
The rental is not "ENFORCED" it's a lifestyle decision to move from the home abroad and to rent in the UK, anyone from anywhere could own a home abroad, come to the UK and rent then claim UK benefits hence the need to prove habitual residence.
My mother moved about 8 miles to live with me but I lived in a different LA/health authority and I had to prove she "habitually" lived with me and while she still owned a house (8 miles away) my LA said she was the other LA's problem and her LA said it was mine.
Even within the UK to get help you have to pass the residency test and owning a house anywhere can make the LA say it's not their problem.
I had to get my mum on the electoral register, registered with a doctor, have her benefits registered at my address and a few other things before my LA would accept her as their responsibility and not keep telling me physically living with me wasn't enough to qualify for help.
K
But it isn't a 'lifestyle choice' from what the post said: "Social Services will not allow my OH to travel back to our home and it is too risky to try it."

It is complicated but if the details are genuine then I don't see how the Local Authority can have it both ways. They either have to accept the house in the other country is a principle home or they should permit the poster to go back.

We're still in the EU and thus entitled to live in other EU countries. In terms of services on offer in other countries its swings and roundabouts. Spain, for instance, has a strong Alzheimers Society and increasing numbers of care homes. It's also possible to hire domiciliary carers for a lot less expense than in the UK. And it has one of the best NHServices in Europe.

Of course even without owning a home you can't just turn up and ask for help even if you are British. You can't even claim unemployment benefits when you initially return.

This is why I suggested that the poster calls the helpline because if it was genuinely a holiday and returning is only not happening because the local authority won't permit it then I suspect there's more can be done.
 

Alex54

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
356
0
Newtown, Wales
returning is only not happening because the local authority won't permit
The conditions imposed by Social Services to consider return to France are:
  • Transport - i.e. private air flight as a two day car journey would be too much.
  • Written statements from French health care regarding what cover would be in place.
The first would cost money we simply do not have, and the second is impossible to achieve unless we could get back there - i.e. the chicken and egg situation.