Deprivation Of Liberty

[MaNaAk]

Hello Everyone!

On Tuesday a social worker phoned up saying he needed to talk to dad and I in the care home about 'Deprivation Of Liberty'. He initially asked if the care home had spoken to me about this but I said they hadn't he expressed surprise and then we arranged the meeting. Anyway the social worker arrived before me and so he had a chat with the staff and looked at dad's case notes. Then the three of us went to have our chat starting with the social worker asking dad some questions and below is a sample of what happened:

Social Worker : How old do you think you are?

Dad: Fifties

Social Worker: What type of place do you think this is?

Dad: School

Social Worker: Do they look after you well here?

Dad: No

Some other questions were asked before going back to the following:

Social Worker: How old do you think you are?

Dad: Fifties

Social Worker: Your notes suggest 85

Dad: Oh I'm not that old

Social Worker: What type of place do you think this is hotel, care home, school?

Dad: School

Social Worker: Do you see any children here?

Dad: Couldn't answer this and I didn't like the mention of the word care home because I have been trying to avoid these words where dad is concerned.

The social worker then asked me some questions and I had to explain about why I had to put dad in the home! The social worker then explained that deprivation of liberty is where someone can no longer do things on their own and the social worker's job is to see that dad really needed to be in a care home. He needed to make sure that I wasn't just trying to get rid of him and the meeting ended with him agreeing that I could no longer look after dad because the last time dad collapsed, because he had decided to eat smaller portions of his main meals I tried to prop him up and risked injuring myself. I said it is very difficult to look after a diabetic who also suffers from Alzheimers with diabetes you can't just stop eating! Anyway dad started to get bored and so the social worker had to try and round up and said that he would be coming again in six months time!

MaNaAk

 

[Jessbow]

That wasn't as I understood it at all!

no one ever questioned me about why mum was in a home at all.

They are a safeguarding tool I thought.

 

[MaNaAk]

That wasn't as I understood it at all!

no one ever questioned me about why mum was in a home at all.

They are a safeguarding tool I thought.

Actually Jessbow they did talk about advocacy and yes I also got the message that they are a safe-guarding tool. I'm sorry I should have mentioned and it is good that someone else is looking out for dad.

MaNaAk

 

[Kevinl]

I think this is just the start of the process, were you asked if you wanted to be the Relevant Person's Representive (RPR)?
The home has no legal right to keep anyone who expresses a wish to leave anymore than you or I have to keep someone anywhere against their wishes, so in order to do that legally they have to get a DoLS,. In the past it wasn't always done but as a result of some court case DoLS are now much more common for people with AZ, acquired brain injuries or diseases/birth issues like cerebral palsy and the like.
To get one for my wife she was seen by a consultant psych, a nurse assessor from the memory team. someone from the DoLS team and an Independent Mental Capacity Advisor (IMAC) was appointed.
They all saw her, wrote a report and as I was her RPR I got copied in on all the reports and then the DoLS team manager approved a DoLS and it gets reviewed annually, I don't recall social services being involved.
As the RPR I had to sign a form saying I thought the DoLS was in her best interests and acknowledge I'd seen all the reports, everything came recorded delivery, it was a long way short of a social worker asking a few questions then rubber stamping it.
Bottom line is that if your dad expresses a wish to leave or tries to get out without a DoLS the home could be charged with illegal imprisonment, just because it's a care home doesn't give the any special rights to detain people against their wishes.
It doesn't stop you taking him out, some of the residents under a DoLS go out with their families for a day or a weekend it happens all the time in the home.
K

 

[Elle3]

Hi MaNaNak Hope your well?

What Kevinl said. I have a DoLS in place for my dad which was applied for by the care home, they had first discussed it with me. Someone went out to see dad and did an assessment and then they called me and asked me some questions about dad, I was established as dad's RPR and a few days later I received some forms in the post which I had to sign, keep one copy and send the rest back, it's valid for a year then reviewed.

Your meeting sounded more like a best interests meeting to me.

Elle x

 

[Sirena]

Hi MaNaNak Hope your well?

What Kevinl said. I have a DoLS in place for my dad which was applied for by the care home, they had first discussed it with me. Someone went out to see dad and did an assessment and then they called me and asked me some questions about dad, I was established as dad's RPR and a few days later I received some forms in the post which I had to sign, keep one copy and send the rest back, it's valid for a year then reviewed.

Your meeting sounded more like a best interests meeting to me.

Elle x

Can you remember what sort of questions they asked, Elle? My mother went into a care home around the same time as your dad but she still hasn't had her DoLS assessment, the care home said at the moment there can be a wait of over a year.

 

[Elle3]

Can you remember what sort of questions they asked, Elle? My mother went into a care home around the same time as your dad but she still hasn't had her DoLS assessment, the care home said at the moment there can be a wait of over a year.

Hi Sirena, Oh WOW that is a long time, Looking at the paperwork dad went into this care home on the 9th May and the assessment was done on the 30th May. So pretty quick, but I think they did request an urgent assessment, as at that time dad was trying to get out of the home, so he did need to be kept there against his will.

Regarding the questions, If I can remember rightly, they were pretty general, they asked me if I was aware that the care home had applied for the DoLS, if I was happy for them to hold this. They confirmed the assessment had been done and agreed dad did not have mental capacity to know his best interests and asked if I agreed with this. They also questioned and I confirmed I didn't have LPA for his Health & Welfare but I was his next of kin. They explained to me what the DoLS was and asked if I was happy to be dad's RPR and that was it.

Elle x

 

[MaNaAk]

Thankyou for all your replies! I will read the document the chap gave me and there were some documents that the home gave me when dad went in so I will read these again. It is good to have an extra body looking after dad.

MaNaAk

PS: Dad went into the home on the 4th July that is almost three months ago so in response to Sirena you've waited a rather long time.

 

[Kevinl]

Can you remember what sort of questions they asked, Elle? My mother went into a care home around the same time as your dad but she still hasn't had her DoLS assessment, the care home said at the moment there can be a wait of over a year.

The option used has to be the "least restrictive" option and they have to assume that people can live outside a care home until it is proved that that is the only viable option.
The type of things they ask about is what the person can and can't do and in what way they would be at danger if they were to leave care so things like personal neglect, not medicating, unable to look after themselves or at risk of wandering, getting lost, basically proving the need for care.
I've just had a read through my wife's report and it says how we have children but the nearest lives over 150 miles away, that I've coped alone for 8 years and that she way sectioned for violence, that she's incapable of doing anything for herself... a whole load of reasons showing why care was the only viable option.
Basically just gathering evidence to show that the person couldn't function without full time support.
K

 

[Slugsta]

I know the wait for a DoLS was very long when Mum was in a CH last year. She went in in February and it still hadn't been done when she died in November. It wasn't deemed urgent though as a) she was bed bound and b) she never expressed a desire to leave.

 

[MaNaAk]

The option used has to be the "least restrictive" option and they have to assume that people can live outside a care home until it is proved that that is the only viable option.
The type of things they ask about is what the person can and can't do and in what way they would be at danger if they were to leave care so things like personal neglect, not medicating, unable to look after themselves or at risk of wandering, getting lost, basically proving the need for care.
I've just had a read through my wife's report and it says how we have children but the nearest lives over 150 miles away, that I've coped alone for 8 years and that she way sectioned for violence, that she's incapable of doing anything for herself... a whole load of reasons showing why care was the only viable option.
Basically just gathering evidence to show that the person couldn't function without full time support.
K

This is exactly what I was asked and it ended with the social worker saying I couldn't possibly have continued to care for dad because if he was collapsing and was trying to support him I risked injuring myself. Also I was concerned about the outside carers because dad was getting aggressive with them and he was of course wandering about.

MaNaAk

 

[Baz22]

This is exactly what I was asked and it ended with the social worker saying I couldn't possibly have continued to care for dad because if he was collapsing and was trying to support him I risked injuring myself. Also I was concerned about the outside carers because dad was getting aggressive with them and he was of course wandering about.

MaNaAk

My experience the same as kevinl. To be honest the DOL psychiatrist and social worker did a brilliant job of meeting with Mum and produced a very accurate assessment of her capabilities. It has to be done by law for the reasons previously explained. The DOL people were far more on the ball than the CHC assessors who were poor. The reason for the long delays is that it is fairly recent legislation and a lot of areas have a massive backlog to get through. They prioritise based on urgency.
I am the RPR and we take Mum out several times a week but the home now has the right to prevent Mum from leaving if she says she wants to do so. The DOL order has a review date but because of the backlog the review dates are treated with a lesser priority unless there is an issue.

 

[Sirena]

Thank you @Elle3 for your reply, and to others who also replied to me. I thought those would be the type of questions, confirming the reasons the PWD needs to be in a care home rather than still living at home.

At the review meeting in May, the manager said she was still waiting for DoLS from 2016!! Slugsta seems to have had a similar experience with a lengthy wait. It doesn't matter because my mum loves the care home, they did say if she wanted to leave they would get an emergency DoLS which would be done within a week.