Bank card and pin number concern in home

[Rosettastone57]

I agree...and if the care home manager insists she is given it...tell her if she can't remember her pin or the process of how to get another or phone the bank then clearly she lacks meaningful mental capacity to handle her finances...and just take it over. Let your mum have the battle with the care home if they are not prepared to use strategies to deflect...distract etc. Your mum can't be the first challenging demanding resident they have come across if truly a dementia care home.

My MIL tried the stance of saying that she'll revoke POA with me as attorney when she was in a particular bad mood. All I said was" that's fine when you've sorted it out let me know ". Of course it never got sorted. I tell her my husband and I are in charge and always will be. I agree with other posters your mum has not got capacity to deal with financial services. When MIL was in hospital she could refuse treatment so the doctor said she had capacity. But she could not make any decisions for her long term future. You need to discuss the home's strategy with difficult behaviour. And others are right it's the home's problem with her behaviour. I think you should make a stand over hospital calls as well . My MIL has only been in her home a week and she's had to go for an x ray . No one expected me to go with her. What would happen if you were unavailable?

 

[Angela57]

My MIL tried the stance of saying that she'll revoke POA with me as attorney when she was in a particular bad mood. All I said was" that's fine when you've sorted it out let me know ". Of course it never got sorted. I tell her my husband and I are in charge and always will be. I agree with other posters your mum has not got capacity to deal with financial services. When MIL was in hospital she could refuse treatment so the doctor said she had capacity. But she could not make any decisions for her long term future. You need to discuss the home's strategy with difficult behaviour. And others are right it's the home's problem with her behaviour. I think you should make a stand over hospital calls as well . My MIL has only been in her home a week and she's had to go for an x ray . No one expected me to go with her. What would happen if you were unavailable?

I'm only called when it's an a & e emergency, any advance appointments the home take her to, with the normal charge for a the carer. That's my concern, mum is sent alone in an emergency. I've spoken to the home owner at length about this, and her final words were that the homes duty of care finishes once mum is in the ambulance. They usually call me before the ambulance has left the home. I usually get there before mum does. If I can't get there immediately, she is alone until I arrive, normally very confused and vulnerable because she can't recall her own name in that state. Last time I was there with her the admission nurse couldn't get her name or date of birth from her, and finally allowed me to speak for mum, because she was refusing to admit her because mum couldn't answer the questions. Over the last 2 years I've rushed to a & e at least 10 times, I would probably guess it's been more like 15 times. I honestly thought all this would stop when she went into a home. Over the 7 years I lived with her and looked after her I cannot recall how many times I went with mum to a & e for emergencies. It feels like little has been taken from my shoulders to be honest. But I've always considered her home to be a good one, now I'm beginning to think it's not so good. My dad's home have always sent a carer with him to hospital, but I thought that was the difference between his nursing home and mum being in a residential home.

 

[Angela57]

I do apologise for such drastic changes in my subject. I'm just feeling so lost about everything regarding mum now. The whole capacity thing is such a minefield. And mum is so convincing that she is perfectly normal, when she wants to create that impression. I'm sure others have experienced the same. I didn't think dementia could be so devious and controlling.

 

[love.dad.but..]

I'm only called when it's an a & e emergency, any advance appointments the home take her to, with the normal charge for a the carer. That's my concern, mum is sent alone in an emergency. I've spoken to the home owner at length about this, and her final words were that the homes duty of care finishes once mum is in the ambulance. They usually call me before the ambulance has left the home. I usually get there before mum does. If I can't get there immediately, she is alone until I arrive, normally very confused and vulnerable because she can't recall her own name in that state. Last time I was there with her the admission nurse couldn't get her name or date of birth from her, and finally allowed me to speak for mum, because she was refusing to admit her because mum couldn't answer the questions. Over the last 2 years I've rushed to a & e at least 10 times, I would probably guess it's been more like 15 times. I honestly thought all this would stop when she went into a home. Over the 7 years I lived with her and looked after her I cannot recall how many times I went with mum to a & e for emergencies. It tells like little has been taken from my shoulders to be honest. But I've always considered her home to be good one, now I'm beginning to think it's not so good.

Hmm..carer staff ratio may mean they have no one they can send and not time to draft an extra in but when dad was in his dementia NH and needed a few times to be taken by ambulance I was always called immediately as I requested...was 35 mins away...and a carer or the activity co ordinator always accompanied dad until I arrived at A and E and they would then be collected by the NH. I never had any impression that their care and concern for dad ended with the ambulance and paramedics taking over. There are so many different aspects highlighted in your posts which are obviously concerning for you but try and deal with them one at a time starting with the one that concerns you the most...no need whatsoever to apologise for posting...hopefully some of our replies can give you a way forward or confidence to tackle something worrying you.

 

[Angela57]

Hmm..carer staff ratio may mean they have no one they can send and not time to draft an extra in but when dad was in his dementia NH and needed a few times to be taken by ambulance I was always called immediately as I requested...was 35 mins away...and a carer or the activity co ordinator always accompanied dad until I arrived at A and E and they would then be collected by the NH. I never had any impression that their care and concern for dad ended with the ambulance and paramedics taking over. There are so many different aspects highlighted in your posts which are obviously concerning for you but try and deal with them one at a time starting with the one that concerns you the most...no need whatsoever to apologise for posting...hopefully some of our replies can give you a way forward or confidence to tackle something worrying you.

Thank you. I started with mum's card and pin number, so that's what I won't deal with first, not until I'm 100% sure that I really have the right to do so. My dad won't suffer financially, he doesn't have long left, bless him, and has been oblivious to money for many years.

But I do think that I should ask mum's home to ask me if mum can afford things before just doing what she demands with her expenditure. For her sake really. If she runs out of money, as the home accountant told me, she will possibly be given notice to leave. While she's been in there, several residents have been given notice, I don't know if it's finance or for behavioural reasons. I decided a week ago to walk away from mum, felt I'd had enough. But even though I asked the home not to call me when she finally wanted to speak to me again, following 2 months of refusing to see me or speak on the phone, she demanded to speak to me from Tuesday to Thursday, they called me each day, telling me how bad her behaviour was, and would I please speak to her in the hope of helping them, and I gave in. So she wants me in her life for now. I have to say how I feel, sorry. Lucky me .... not at all!

 

[DeniseDC]

Agree w action of taking back that card asap. Separate the accounts may be best. Give your Mom a re-loadable type gift card that you can limit to = $40 or 50. USD a month.

 

[Kipster]

With my Mother I simply told the bank she had lost capacity and they accepted this. Obviously your Mum try to challenge this legally but I doubt she has the capacity. Good luck.

 

[Sirena]

I'm only called when it's an a & e emergency, any advance appointments the home take her to, with the normal charge for a the carer. That's my concern, mum is sent alone in an emergency. I've spoken to the home owner at length about this, and her final words were that the homes duty of care finishes once mum is in the ambulance. They usually call me before the ambulance has left the home. I usually get there before mum does. If I can't get there immediately, she is alone until I arrive, normally very confused and vulnerable because she can't recall her own name in that state. Last time I was there with her the admission nurse couldn't get her name or date of birth from her, and finally allowed me to speak for mum, because she was refusing to admit her because mum couldn't answer the questions. Over the last 2 years I've rushed to a & e at least 10 times, I would probably guess it's been more like 15 times. I honestly thought all this would stop when she went into a home. Over the 7 years I lived with her and looked after her I cannot recall how many times I went with mum to a & e for emergencies. It feels like little has been taken from my shoulders to be honest. But I've always considered her home to be a good one, now I'm beginning to think it's not so good. My dad's home have always sent a carer with him to hospital, but I thought that was the difference between his nursing home and mum being in a residential home.

So what do they do when the person does not have a relative, or the relative is ill/on holiday? They don't sound particularly interested in the welfare of their residents. My mother is in a dementia care home (not nursing) and has had two A&E admissions in the past six months (two falls), and both times the care home sent her with a carer. The carer stays either until she is admitted, or until I can get there, whichever is the sooner.

Your mother may be able to talk up a storm but it's doubtful that someone who cannot remember her own name or date of birth when unwell should be entrusted with a bank card. When I registered POA, the bank asked if I wanted my mother to continue to have access to her account, or only me. I gave her continued access because at that point she lived at home and went to the bank to withdraw money with a carer (she couldn't remember her PIN but the bank knew her and let her sign for it). I could see on her online statements that she only took out £60 a week for shopping, and if she needed extra for new specs or a haircut, the care agency always told me. If there had been any 'daft' spending, I would have rescinded her access and given her money via the agency. I think it's important for you to get the card back, or ensure she cannot use it. As POA you have to act in her best interests, which includes ensuring her money is used wisely.

I realise your dreadful history with your mother makes it very difficult for you to deal with how she behaves, and the care home really isn't helping on that score. But unless you start saying no, and take a step back, nothing will change - your mother will continue to be abusive and manipulative, and the care home will continue to let you take the flak. Very difficult for you, I hope you find a way through this with support from the rest of your family.

 

[Rosettastone57]

The care home manager should have more sense. She's leaving herself and her staff open to accusations of fraud and theft. She has access to the bank card and the PIN of a vulnerable resident. She could lose her career very easily.

Totally agree . Attorneys have certain responsibilities and they also need the confidence to deal with them . As others have said nothing will change unless you step up and be counted.

 

[canary]

I suspect that the problem is that your mum is seen as having capacity and is therefore treated as such - she is not stopped from having her own card and buying stuff, they acquiesce to her demands and do not accompany her to hospital appointments ets - all because she apparently has capacity.

I think it likely that the home she is staying in only accepts people with very mild dementia (hence people being given notice) and therefore dont really understand how to deal with more challenging dementia behaviour.

Your best bet may be to get her capacity checked again, although Im not sure how you go about this. Once she is acknowledged as having lost capacity then it will be easier for you to get things more in order.

 

[Lindy50]

Totally agree with @canary
I think your mum needs reassessing by a mental health professional and possibly a move to another home. The current one really doesn’t seem to know how to handle the situation. You’d certainly need a mental health team to achieve that, though!
@Angela57, I’m afraid I’ve lost track Have you discussed this with the helpline? Or with Admiral Nurses? They would hopefully be able to help you draw up a plan of your priorities in this complex situation x
All the best
Lindy xx

 

[Beate]

I'm going to be blunt. You as her attorney has to have her best interests at heart. That isn't for her to fritter her money away, aided by an irresponsible care home management, who by the way make themselves liable if anyone steals the card and PIN to commit fraud. Taking the PIN away on its own is not enough as it's not needed with online shopping or when swiping the card in shops for purchases under £30. A person can have fluctuating capacity, and capacity in some things while not in others. She might be able to choose between fish pie or macaroni cheese for lunch but not be able to manage her finances. You are sure she can't do the latter so it's your responsibility to stop her doing so. Remove the card and PIN and replace it with fake bank notes to keep her happy. You should also forbid anyone to ask her for money. If anything needs paying for they can accept fake notes from her then invoice you.

 

[Sirena]

I'm going to be blunt. You as her attorney has to have her best interests at heart. That isn't for her to fritter her money away, aided by an irresponsible care home management, who by the way make themselves liable if anyone steals the card and PIN to commit fraud. Taking the PIN away on its own is not enough as it's not needed with online shopping or when swiping the card in shops for purchases under £30. A person can have fluctuating capacity, and capacity in some things while not in others. She might be able to choose between fish pie or macaroni cheese for lunch but not be able to manage her finances. You are sure she can't do the latter so it's your responsibility to stop her doing so. Remove the card and PIN and replace it with fake bank notes to keep her happy. You should also forbid anyone to ask her for money. If anything needs paying for they can accept fake notes from her then invoice you.

I was thinking the same about capacity, Beate. My mother can even now (in a care home with late mid-stage dementia) choose what to have for lunch but has been unable to deal with her finances for well over two years. She could get money out at her branch, but she could no longer remember how to transfer funds to pay her utilities or rent, and got into major trouble with unpaid bills, which is why I began using my POA. At the point I took over her finances, she was still living at home and a SW had fairly recently deemed her to need 'no help' (because she told him she didn't!) so was presumably deemed to have capacity. Fortunately there was no argument as she wanted me to take over her finances - if I hadn't, she would probably have ended up being evicted. So much for 'capacity'.