Bank card and pin number concern in home

[Angela57]

My mum has been in a care home for over 2 years. I have POA, but she is considered to have capacity. I have dealt with her finances for approx the last year and paid a monthly bill for her spends for trips out, hairdresser, chiropody, nails cut and being assisted to medical appointments including cabs and carer charges for any outings, etc for the last year. Mum was at the time happy to allow me to do this on her behalf.

However, she has now become obsessed in wanting to deal with her own finances (spending) again, and has demanded her bank card back, which I took this week, with a note for her, so that she had her pin number. The home told me that they would keep her card in their safe and give it to her when required and then put it safely back in their safe.

But because mum has challenging behaviour, and has created a lot, they have now given her the card.

The account is in joint names for both my parents, my dad is also in a home suffering from dementia, and I also have POA for him, but he cannot manage his finances, I deal with everything on his behalf.

I'd just like to know if the home has the right to allow mum to keep both her card and pin number together considering the risk involved. I was assured that they would be kept seperate before I handed it over to mum.

 

[Louise7]

I really don't think that it's a good idea to give anyone the PIN number, including the care home. Why would your Mum need to know the PIN number? If your Mum is insistent on having the card then the security numbers on the back of the card can be scratched off to prevent use, or alternatively try giving her another old card. She may then think that she is paying for her expenses but you can still continue to pay these yourself. Also, providing 'fake' cash also seems to work when people are insistent on managing their own money.

 

[Angela57]

Thank you for the advice @Louise7.

This all started because the company who do eye tests and provide residents in the home with new glasses, asked her for her card to make payment, she's been obsessed ever since, for a few weeks.

She now wants to be taken out by staff to get money for her purse (which the home provided and included in their monthly invoice that I paid) herself from a cash machine. The card has to work and she needs the pin number too. It's far from ideal, but she's considered to have capacity, so it's a tricky situation. My concern is that she has her card and pin number together, and that leaves both my parents joint bank account vulnerable.

The home seems to try to get her out of her tantrums by doing anything she demands. E.G. the hairdresser who goes to the home once a week refused to perm her hair last week because mum had it done the week before, mum was challenging, and demanded that they take her to a salon, which they did, the salon also refused to perm her hair. Mum has a prolapse, she's been told many times after many investigations that it doesn't require surgery, but has been emergency admitted into hospital so many times complaining about the pain and sent home again, that finally, the NHS have agreed to operate. She had her pre med a couple of weeks ago, but wasn't happy with the wait involved, so the home took her to a private consultation last week, in the hope she could have the operation faster, but the consultant said she didn't need the op and that even if she did, it was too risky. Today, she is insisting that her dentures are not hers, that they have been swapped, so the home have called me to let me know that they will take her for new dentures, this will be the 3rd set in 2 years.

I am grateful that they look after her so well, that they take her welfare seriously, but I'm beginning to think that they will do anything to keep her happy, including allowing her to have both bank card and pin number together. They have told me that they have explained the implications to her, and that she's decided. All well and good if it was her sole account, but it isn't.

 

[jenniferpa]

In your place I'd be incline to separate the accounts. Have one for your father and one for your mother, keeping only a small amount of money in your mothers. In fact your mother's could remain a joint account, but you could start a new account for your father (I'm assuming he doesn't have capacity?).

 

[Rosettastone57]

There are too many risks here. What if her card and PIN number go ‘missing’ in the care home? Really, the care home should insist either you keep card or they put it in their safe. I’d want to be speaking with the care home manager about it all. My mom’s care home did not allow residents to have cards, excess cash, cheque books or anything else of value because of the obvious issues - some of the other residents sometimes wandered into other residents unlocked rooms and of course it was impossible to safeguard personal stuff, some residents also just took things from other residents and my mom’s dentures disappeared also off her trolley ! It’s especially difficult as you say because it’s a bank card for a joint account - I definitely think a good chat with the care home manager is needed.

I agree. You should separate the accounts and not let cards, pin number and anything else of value into the home. You need to take a stand here with the home. My MIL still has some capacity and has just gone into a care home. I have told the home that I will be dealing with any bills and finances. I would be telling the home that any further expenses e.g. private health consultation would be run past me . They need to be able to deal with her behaviour . What strategies do they have in place for these challenges from mum? What happens if residents who don't have capacity demand these things? Has your mum lost capacity now?

 

[Angela57]

There are too many risks here. What if her card and PIN number go ‘missing’ in the care home? Really, the care home should insist either you keep card or they put it in their safe. I’d want to be speaking with the care home manager about it all. My mom’s care home did not allow residents to have cards, excess cash, cheque books or anything else of value because of the obvious issues - some of the other residents sometimes wandered into other residents unlocked rooms and of course it was impossible to safeguard personal stuff, some residents also just took things from other residents and my mom’s dentures disappeared also off her trolley ! It’s especially difficult as you say because it’s a bank card for a joint account - I definitely think a good chat with the care home manager is needed.

It was the care home manager that I spoke to today about it. She said mum was so determined and was getting more and more angry, and wouldn't stop asking, so she felt she had to, considering that mum has capacity. We've already had mum insisting on police etc several times because she thought her money has been stolen in the past, too many times to be honest. Prior to me taking over for the last year. I've already pointed out to the manager that it will all start again, because mum won't be happy with taking £50 a time from the cash machine, she will take £300 a time, the most her card allows in one transaction.

My mum spent over a thousand pounds last month on top of the home fees, it's usually around £500 a month normally. With more new teeth that she doesn't need this month will also approach a thousand pounds again. My dad is fully funded, so his monthly invoice is small. But they only have a small amount of savings, mum's going to spend everything in the next couple of years the way she is going.

I understand that the home feel tied to do as mum wants/demands, because I do too, considering that her last assessment deemed her to have capacity. Yes, she's good at spending, but £2 may as well be two million to her. She wouldn't be able to set up a standing order or change it when necessary, not even make a call to the bank unassisted. I'm going off my real reason for my thread now, but who decides if she has capacity? That's why I feel nothing can be done to prevent all this. Is it just SS who decides if someone has capacity? Her GP is new from when she went into the home (2 year's) and doesn't know her as her old GP of 40 odd years did. How can even a professional decide if she has capacity with a 1 hour visit once a year?

 

[Louise7]

You say that you have a financial POA for both your Mum and Dad and that you have been managing both of their finances, which are in a joint account. A financial POA can be 'activated' prior to someone losing their mental capacity, dependant on what the POA says - there are options for the attorney to be able to make decisions as soon as the LPA has been registered or only when there is no mental capacity. What does your Mum's POA form say? Have both POA's been lodged with their bank? As they have a joint account if you have lodged just your Dad's POA with the bank but not your Mum's you are still responsible - as your Dad's attorney - to safeguard his finances so giving your Mum free range to spend what she likes from their joint account isn't safeguarding his finances. As already suggested, it may be better for them to have separate accounts.

Mental capacity can fluctuate so it doesn't matter how long the GP has known your Mum. What matters is whether she is deemed to have capacity at the time of assessment.

 

[Angela57]

I agree. You should separate the accounts and not let cards, pin number and anything else of value into the home. You need to take a stand here with the home. My MIL still has some capacity and has just gone into a care home. I have told the home that I will be dealing with any bills and finances. I would be telling the home that any further expenses e.g. private health consultation would be run past me . They need to be able to deal with her behaviour . What strategies do they have in place for these challenges from mum? What happens if residents who don't have capacity demand these things? Has your mum lost capacity now?

In my opinion mum hasn't lost total capacity, she can decide what she wants to eat and drink, she can decide if she wants to attend outings etc. But she is completely incapable of understanding what money is worth any more, if I told her she has a thousand pounds in the bank, to her it might as well be a million. She can no longer make calls to the bank, she hasn't been able to recall her security questions for at least five years now, let alone follow the conversation and understand it, so of course she can't set up standing orders for her care, or amend them, I will still be doing what she cannot do. If that's capacity God help all carers. I think their strategy is to give in to her challenging behaviour, but I have to admit that she scares me to death in honesty, but that's been a lifetime thing for me. I've worked in homes in the past, and have never come across just giving in to someone because of their anger before.

 

[Angela57]

You say that you have a financial POA for both your Mum and Dad and that you have been managing both of their finances, which are in a joint account. A financial POA can be 'activated' prior to someone losing their mental capacity, dependant on what the POA says - there are options for the attorney to be able to make decisions as soon as the LPA has been registered or only when there is no mental capacity. What does your Mum's POA form say? Have both POA's been lodged with their bank? As they have a joint account if you have lodged just your Dad's POA with the bank but not your Mum's you are still responsible - as your Dad's attorney - to safeguard his finances so giving your Mum free range to spend what she likes from their joint account isn't safeguarding his finances. As already suggested, it may be better for them to have separate accounts.

Mental capacity can fluctuate so it doesn't matter how long the GP has known your Mum. What matters is whether she is deemed to have capacity at the time of assessment.

Thank you, I will check the POA's, they were made many years ago. I have registered both of them. I have also registered them both with their bank. My dad was put on end of life in March, he is hanging on, but only just. He has been in a home for 12 years, and mum has always treated their money as purely hers. I've tried to explain to her that half the money is his, but her reply is always the same, what do you think he's going to do with it? Nothing. I would separate their money now I've had that advice, I didn't realise I could. But it's too late now, the money won't run out while my dad is still alive.

Your advise has been very helpfull, thank you.

 

[nitram]

Making the joint account sole in ether of their names and opening a new sole account is one way, this would require them both to sign the change from joint to sole, as you have POA for both this may raise difficulties.

Alternatively you could open two new sole accounts.

Whichever way you should put half the balance of the joint account into each new sole account and then move direct debits and incoming payments as appropriate.

Best have a word with the bank as to how you should proceed.

 

[Louise7]

Check what's on your Mum's POA but if you've already lodged it with the bank then you are responsible for her finances not her. I wouldn't get hung up on whether she has mental capacity or not - I think that the care home are just using that as a 'get out' to avoid dealing with the situation effectively. They should be used to this sort of behaviour from dementia residents as it's quite common. Inform the home that you have financial POA and will be dealing with all your Mum's finances from now on. They seem to be happy to spend your Mum's cash as freely as she is by taking her to see private consultants and for new dentures when she doesn't need them. They should be able to come up with strategies such as allowing your Mum a small amount of regular cash, informing her that the cash machine is out of order, the staff are too busy to take her there etc. Make sure that you get that card & PIN back asap. Sorry to hear about your Dad. It must be difficult having to deal with your Mum's problems on top of everything else, especially as her home doesn't seem to be doing anything to support you in this.

 

[love.dad.but..]

This is a very tricky situation it seems the care hone manager is hardly working with you to find a solution just enabling her demands however could you raise your concerns in writing to the manager and ask that they involve the mental health team for strategies and another mental capacity test and attend to personally voice your concerns directly with them. Of course if the answer is that they then still feel she has mental capacity to handle her finances albeit unwisely then probably not much you can do except as others have said split the accounts and see if the bank will limit the max amount to much lower minimising her spend. Is this a home that can handle moderate to late dementia challenging behaviour? I would be unhappy with the way they are dealing with this. I would insist if me that all amounts need to be run past you first as it will be inevitable with decline she will lose mental capacity and that you will be taking over her finances just as you have for your dad.There is a vast difference in being able to decide what she wants to eat or go on an outing but able to understand and retain information on financial matters in a meaningful way seems very fluctuating.From what you describe though if you presented your mum at the bank and they could see for themselves that if asked a few questions and they realised that her card and number was not solely in her possession and kept securely by her this surely goes against their t and c's etc...they may make the decision for her.

 

[Youngfogee]

Power of Attorney.
I was shocked to find out, recently, that husband and wife with a joint bank account do NOT automatically have access to their joint account if one of the parties no longer has the mental capacity to act. The bank account will be frozen unless there was a POA in place to allow the wife to act for the husband. So although you may have POA to act for your parents, they may not be able to act in their own capacity.

This may be a way out for you.

I will look out the relevant details later but I'm going out now.

 

[Angela57]

Check what's on your Mum's POA but if you've already lodged it with the bank then you are responsible for her finances not her. I wouldn't get hung up on whether she has mental capacity or not - I think that the care home are just using that as a 'get out' to avoid dealing with the situation effectively. They should be used to this sort of behaviour from dementia residents as it's quite common. Inform the home that you have financial POA and will be dealing with all your Mum's finances from now on. They seem to be happy to spend your Mum's cash as freely as she is by taking her to see private consultants and for new dentures when she doesn't need them. They should be able to come up with strategies such as allowing your Mum a small amount of regular cash, informing her that the cash machine is out of order, the staff are too busy to take her there etc. Make sure that you get that card & PIN back asap. Sorry to hear about your Dad. It must be difficult having to deal with your Mum's problems on top of everything else, especially as her home doesn't seem to be doing anything to support you in this.

I agree completely about the home helping her to spend her money. She is taken for a cinema trip once a month, on a one to one basis with a carer, it includes the cost of cabs both ways, food and the hourly rate for the carer, her bill is always £78 and a few pence. I'm convinced that she pays for both tickets, understandibly, but for food for the carer too. However, when she's rushed into hospital (which is often), I get a call and am expected to rush there too, even though I've asked the home to never send her alone in case I'm just not free and that I'll happily pay for a carer for an hour until I can get there. Just to help book her into hospital, because often she doesn't even know her own surname when poorly, let alone her date of birth. Only this month I rushed there following a call, the home hadn't supplied the paramedics with her DNAR, or her mar chart (list of medication). Also once when she was discharged and went back to the home, when I visited her, she was in a ground floor room, (had to change due to lack of mobility) that was filthy and not ready for her, with all of the possesions in black bin bags of the previously deceased resident in there, all of her things were still in her upstairs room. Apologies for going off at a tangent.

 

[Sirena]

The care home sounds hopeless. Happy to spend her money and pander to her whims, but not happy to take responsibility in situations where they need to. I agree with Louise7, you need to get the card and PIN back. It sounds as if no one is prepared to say no to your mother.

 

[Angela57]

Power of Attorney.
I was shocked to find out, recently, that husband and wife with a joint bank account do NOT automatically have access to their joint account if one of the parties no longer has the mental capacity to act. The bank account will be frozen unless there was a POA in place to allow the wife to act for the husband. So although you may have POA to act for your parents, they may not be able to act in their own capacity.

This may be a way out for you.

I will look out the relevant details later but I'm going out now.

Thank you so much! She has refused to see me or speak with me for 2 months. When she finally allowed me to visit, she told me that she wanted to revoke my power of attorney so that she could deal with her own finances. She's friends with me for now, but only because I gave her the bank card back. I thought I had to considering that she is deemed to have capacity. She's unable to speak on the phone, or complete forms, but I thought she may be able to get help to revoke it. I think that she's already changed her will to cut me out of it, that was a couple of months ago now. It wouldn't surprise me if the home helped her to complete forms, or provide someone who could to revoke my POA!

 

[Angela57]

The care home sounds hopeless. Happy to spend her money and pander to her whims, but not happy to take responsibility in situations where they need to. I agree with Louise7, you need to get the card and PIN back. It sounds as if no one is prepared to say no to your mother.

That includes me I'm afraid, I lived with and looked after her for 7 years prior to her going into the home. When she's nasty, she is nasty and will tell terrible lies to get her own way. She was always reporting me to SS for really horrific things that each time they clearly knew I hadn't done, it became clear to them that I had the cuts and bruises, not mum, because she was doing it to me, not me doing it to her, no matter how many times she reported me, the same outcome. But it's left me mentally unable to cope with her anger now, I was relieved when she went in the home, foolishly thinking that my and mum's problems would end. I become terrified the minute she turns her anger towards me. While in the home she's physically attacked both residents and staff, and always justifies it, 'he/she asked for it'.

 

[Jessbow]

Take the pin number away. If she cannot remember it, she cannot use it, end of.
It only takes one untrustworthy person.....
Can you imagine? ''I have POA but gave her the bank card and wrote the pin number down for her''

So so hard, very difficult position to be in.

 

[love.dad.but..]

Take the pin number away. If she cannot remember it, she cannot use it, end of.
It only takes one untrustworthy person.....
Can you imagine? ''I have POA but gave her the bank card and wrote the pin number down for her''

So so hard, very difficult position to be in.

I agree...and if the care home manager insists she is given it...tell her if she can't remember her pin or the process of how to get another or phone the bank then clearly she lacks meaningful mental capacity to handle her finances...and just take it over. Let your mum have the battle with the care home if they are not prepared to use strategies to deflect...distract etc. Your mum can't be the first challenging demanding resident they have come across if truly a dementia care home.

 

[Angela57]

I agree...and if the care home manager insists she is given it...tell her if she can't remember her pin or the process of how to get another or phone the bank then clearly she lacks meaningful mental capacity to handle her finances...and just take it over. Let your mum have the battle with the care home if they are not prepared to use strategies to deflect...distract etc. Your mum can't be the first challenging demanding resident they have come across if truly a dementia care home.

Well, it's described as a dementia care home.