Finance assessment

[Butterfly58]

can anybody advise me, I am in the process of a financial assessment, l have completed all the forms and given the documentation.
The finance team have written to me, saying as I’m waiting for POA to be granted my stepdad will be charged full care costs, l cannot see how they can charge him full amount as his savings are only a fraction over £14.000.
Can anybody help me in this matter, I haven’t received a bill as yet though.

 

[Butterfly58]

Hi. I'm sure someone will advise you soon. I don't have experience of this but it doesn't sound right. Is your stepdad in a care home? Is it the local authority's finance team who've told you this? You could tell them you can do nothing until you have POA - and SS have the duty of care.

Thank you for your response,my stepfather was in hospital for seven weeks, he had limited mobility before he was admitted after a near fatal infection he now has virtually no mobility left, unable to walk or feed himself,doublerly incontinent and had dementia before he went into hospital.
After about the fifth week he had made sufficient recovery, the doctors could do no more for him, he was referred to social services who assessed him and recommended he went into permanent nursing care.
The hospital wanted his bed as he was considered what they refer to as bed blocking. I was given the assessment forms to fill in and before this was completed he was being offered nursing homes.
I panicked a bit as ss we’re recommending homes that were miles away and my mother was getting very distressed about how we were going to visit him, neither of us can drive. Eventually they did offer us a local home in centre of town so we jumped at the opportunity.
The care home so far have been lovely, caring and accommodating. I felt ss didn’t waste any time, we accepted offer on the Friday and he was moved early Saturday morning.
I cannot get access to bank accounts so had to apply for POA, I phoned the local authority to inform them.
I received a letter yesterday to say until I get POA he will be charged full care costs which he cannot afford, l thought they would not expect him to pay anything below the threshold of £14.000, I am deeply troubled by this and finding at this early stage out of my depth.

 

[Azza19]

If he is in nursing care and from what you have said he may be eligible for CHC or Continuing Health care funding. This is when the nhs pays for the care because it is assessed as a primary health need. If you contact your local clinical commissioning group CCG you can self refer... or you can ask your GP to support your application. Make sure you say there is no way you can look after him at home with his needs as they are. Ask SS about CHC as well. There is usually a multi agency assessment for this... with both SS and NHS. SS should only provide social care... which is chargeable if you are self funding... but CHC healthcare is paid for.

 

[Baz22]

Thank you for your response,my stepfather was in hospital for seven weeks, he had limited mobility before he was admitted after a near fatal infection he now has virtually no mobility left, unable to walk or feed himself,doublerly incontinent and had dementia before he went into hospital.
After about the fifth week he had made sufficient recovery, the doctors could do no more for him, he was referred to social services who assessed him and recommended he went into permanent nursing care.
The hospital wanted his bed as he was considered what they refer to as bed blocking. I was given the assessment forms to fill in and before this was completed he was being offered nursing homes.
I panicked a bit as ss we’re recommending homes that were miles away and my mother was getting very distressed about how we were going to visit him, neither of us can drive. Eventually they did offer us a local home in centre of town so we jumped at the opportunity.
The care home so far have been lovely, caring and accommodating. I felt ss didn’t waste any time, we accepted offer on the Friday and he was moved early Saturday morning.
I cannot get access to bank accounts so had to apply for POA, I phoned the local authority to inform them.
I received a letter yesterday to say until I get POA he will be charged full care costs which he cannot afford, l thought they would not expect him to pay anything below the threshold of £14.000, I am deeply troubled by this and finding at this early stage out of my depth.

Unfortunately you are entering a minefield or perhaps more appropriately a "pit of misery". Do not bank on getting CHC, as the NHS routinely refuse it and make you fight every step of the way. I am 9 months in to my battle. The NHS also routinely hurry people out of hospital using emotional blackmail and underhand techniques; they should have informed you of CHC and done an initial assessment. The bit I find puzzling is why the SS (aptly named) have said you have to pay in full. Irrespective of whether you have POA or not they should be providing funding if assets are below £23,500 including property. At £14,000 you are only marginally above the threshold for full payment although if it is not their chosen nursing home you are liable for top up fees. Also be aware the SS get cheaper rates in care homes than those paying privately do. You will need to be bloody-minded in your dealings with SS and CHC. Why not have a chat with Age UK or the Alzheimers Society as they are very helpful.

 

[Louise7]

The bit I find puzzling is why the SS (aptly named) have said you have to pay in full. Irrespective of whether you have POA or not they should be providing funding if assets are below £23,500 including property.

I guess that in the absence of bank statements the 'default' position is to assume that savings/assets are in excess of the lower limit, meaning that social services are not responsible for the payment, your step father is. However, as stated they have duty of care so your step father won't end up homeless through their refusal to fund a placement or his inability to pay.

I'm assuming that the bank accounts are not joint with your Mother? Has your Mother looked to see if there are any statements at home? As you are going to apply for POA that suggests that your step father still has mental capacity. Is he able to talk to the bank via phone to request statements, if someone helps him to make the call and explains to the bank that he has dementia?

 

[Butterfly58]

If he is in nursing care and from what you have said he may be eligible for CHC or Continuing Health care funding. This is when the nhs pays for the care because it is assessed as a primary health need. If you contact your local clinical commissioning group CCG you can self refer... or you can ask your GP to support your application. Make sure you say there is no way you can look after him at home with his needs as they are. Ask SS about CHC as well. There is usually a multi agency assessment for this... with both SS and NHS. SS should only provide social care... which is chargeable if you are self funding... but CHC healthcare is paid for.

My stepdad was assessed for CHC but did not meet all the criteria,however they do contribute a portion of his nursing care costs.

 

[Butterfly58]

Unfortunately you are entering a minefield or perhaps more appropriately a "pit of misery". Do not bank on getting CHC, as the NHS routinely refuse it and make you fight every step of the way. I am 9 months in to my battle. The NHS also routinely hurry people out of hospital using emotional blackmail and underhand techniques; they should have informed you of CHC and done an initial assessment. The bit I find puzzling is why the SS (aptly named) have said you have to pay in full. Irrespective of whether you have POA or not they should be providing funding if assets are below £23,500 including property. At £14,000 you are only marginally above the threshold for full payment although if it is not their chosen nursing home you are liable for top up fees. Also be aware the SS get cheaper rates in care homes than those paying privately do. You will need to be bloody-minded in your dealings with SS and CHC. Why not have a chat with Age UK or the Alzheimers Society as they are very helpful.

I am absolutely astounded by how little help or guidance one gets, I did choose the home they were willing to fund, it is one of the ones the LA use.I don’t know if we are incurring full costs as everything is taking so long to finalise.
I’m afraid I am stumbling along making mistake after mistake and getting nowhere, if the fees he is incurring are to steep can I refuse to pay them?

 

[Butterfly58]

I guess that in the absence of bank statements the 'default' position is to assume that savings/assets are in excess of the lower limit, meaning that social services are not responsible for the payment, your step father is. However, as stated they have duty of care so your step father won't end up homeless through their refusal to fund a placement or his inability to pay.

I'm assuming that the bank accounts are not joint with your Mother? Has your Mother looked to see if there are any statements at home? As you are going to apply for POA that suggests that your step father still has mental capacity. Is he able to talk to the bank via phone to request statements, if someone helps him to make the call and explains to the bank that he has dementia?

My stepdad has a marginal amount of capacity we only just scaped through his assessment with the solicitor, he was unable to sign his name but made his mark which solicitor witnessed.
The bank accounts are separate, I have been to the bank to ask for bank statements but told without POA they cannot help.
The LA do know he only has a modest savings, guess I’m stuck now until I get POA. Very worried though.

 

[Butterfly58]

Thank you for your understanding. I am dreading the years ahead.

 

[Kikki21]

My stepdad has a marginal amount of capacity we only just scaped through his assessment with the solicitor, he was unable to sign his name but made his mark which solicitor witnessed.
The bank accounts are separate, I have been to the bank to ask for bank statements but told without POA they cannot help.
The LA do know he only has a modest savings, guess I’m stuck now until I get POA. Very worried though.

This doesn’t sound right at all!
Before my mum lost capacity, I was able to get third party access to all her accounts but I can’t do online banking which to be honest is the biggest hassle of all.
It was awful to get her to the bank in the first place, then they completely messed up & I went mental & complained to them. They found in my favour, apologised & made me a goodwill payment. Is there any way you can get your step dad to the bank? You should take the CHC assessment to say he is still deemed to have capacity because if you don’t then they may think he actually doesn’t.
CHC funding is deliberately set so high that few get it. It’s absolutely wrong.
I am applying for COP now & have my mum’s 2nd financial assessment today. She is nearing her 12 week disregard now but we haven’t paid anything so far. Not even a top up & we were told there would be a top up fee.

Most care homes seem to bill monthly though & like you, I wouldn’t be able to afford to pay either but at least I can set up stuff at my mum’s bank or do something to offset a charge. It is an absolute minefield though!

 

[Butterfly58]

As soon as I told the bank he was in a care home with dementure they didn’t want to know.walked away as I was speaking, very embarrassing.

 

[Beate]

It isn't about refusing to pay the fees, you simply cannot as long as you haven't got access to his bank account. So while I see where they are coming from - without access to bank statements you can't prove how much or little he has - this works in your favour too. You have no personal liability for these fees (so for God's sake don't sign anything to that end!) so all you need to do is tell them that they will have to wait until POA is registered and that there is no point in even sending invoices before, because as soon as it's registered you will go to the bank and get them the financial info proving that he doesn't have to pay it all.

 

[Baz22]

Beate is right so make it a Social Services problem not your problem. Of course you will still worry but get them to sort out the issue whilst you wait for POA. There are lots of us dealing with financial worries on top of dementia worries which is why I get so annoyed when the government keeps knocking it into the long grass of the future. We all need help NOW! More letters in The Times today on "Social care needs funding not just the NHS".

 

[kindred]

Beate is right so make it a Social Services problem not your problem. Of course you will still worry but get them to sort out the issue whilst you wait for POA. There are lots of us dealing with financial worries on top of dementia worries which is why I get so annoyed when the government keeps knocking it into the long grass of the future. We all need help NOW! More letters in The Times today on "Social care needs funding not just the NHS".

Yes, thank you. The government will not face the dementia bomb but they will eventually have to. When you read the dreadful times members of this post are going through ... the suffering, the awful lives, then you think SOMEONE has to care, someone has to notice us, do something ...G