Tenancy in Common - both parents possibly in care?

[JonBelfast]

Hi

My parents live in Northern Ireland. They have a tenancy in common in place for their house since mid-2012. My mother was diagnosed with dementia in mid-2013. She had no symptoms when tenancy in common was setup (I therefore believe no issues with deprivation of assests). She went into nursing care in mid-2016 and is still there, even though her condition is slowly declining. There was no care fees to pay as Dad lived in the home.

However, Dad fell recently, broke his hip and is making a slow recovery in hospital. He has other medical conditions also. His condition is such that social carers say he may need full time nursing care also when he is "medically fit" to leave hospital.

Questions....

1. If he goes into care, do my sisters and I have to pay for both their care (less pensions)? (We are joinly named in tenancy in common & their combined assets, excluding house, is only £5K.)

2. If so, when first one of my parents passes, do we still have to pay for care for the survivor?

We have some savings and would prefer not to sell home until absolutely necessary, if it meant avoiding care fees for the second one, when the first one passes.

Any and all advice welcome. Thank you.

 

[JBK]

Hi

My parents live in Northern Ireland. They have a tenancy in common in place for their house since mid-2012. My mother was diagnosed with dementia in mid-2013. She had no symptoms when tenancy in common was setup (I therefore believe no issues with deprivation of assests). She went into nursing care in mid-2016 and is still there, even though her condition is slowly declining. There was no care fees to pay as Dad lived in the home.


However, Dad fell recently, broke his hip and is making a slow recovery in hospital. He has other medical conditions also. His condition is such that social carers say he may need full time nursing care also when he is "medically fit" to leave hospital.

Questions....

1. If he goes into care, do my sisters and I have to pay for both their care (less pensions)? (We are joinly named in tenancy in common)

2. If so, when first one of my parents passes, do we still have to pay for care for the survivor?

We have some savings and would prefer not to sell home until absolutely necessary, if it meant avoiding care fees for the second one, when the first one passes.

Any and all advice welcome. Thank you.

 

[nitram]

Unless NI is different to the rest of the UK there is no filial responsibility so neither you nor your sister will have to pay for care in any circumstances.

I understand that the house is owned as tenants in common between you, your sister, and your parents. If both parents were in residential care the LA are likely to try all means of including their combined shares as assets.
You need informed, expert advice on the rules applicable in NI.

 

[JBK]

Hi Jon. I hope this attempt to reply reaches you this time 3rd attempt !

This is such a minefield. Have you thought about contacting The Alzheimers Society or Age UK ? I have found them very supportive if I've had any concerns. If they don't know thy always "know a man who does"

Just a thought from me though.
You say you have been told it's likely your Dad will need 24hr nursing care. If this is so he would be entitled to Continuing Health Care which is paid by NHS.

Good luck

 

[Beate]

Someone needing nursing care does not mean they will qualify for CHC funding, in fact that is very hard to get, as evidenced from threads on this forum, but they should get the £155/week FNC funding, which is granted by going through he same assessment.

Do you have LPA? Without it you couldn't even sell the property and would have to apply to the COP for permission.

 

[JonBelfast]

Unless NI is different to the rest of the UK there is no filial responsibility so neither you nor your sister will have to pay for care in any circumstances.

Thanks for your reply. Can you olease explain what you mean by 'no filial responsibility?

I understand that the house is owned as tenants in common between you, your sister, and your parents. If both parents were in residential care the LA are likely to try all means of including their combined shares as assets.

Just to clarify .... the house is owned jointly by my parents under tenancy in common BUT my sisters and I only take ownership of Dad or Mum's half on their individual death. Does that make a difference?

You need informed, expert advice on the rules applicable in NI.

Thanks, sensible plan.

 

[nitram]

Remember this is NI
Historically there was no equivalent to a Check List/ DST decisions were made locally and fragmented.
The best I can find as to the current situation is a proposal last year, don't know whether it has been accepted.
https://consultations.nidirect.gov....it/continuing-healthcare-in-northern-ireland/

 

[JonBelfast]

This is such a minefield. Have you thought about contacting The Alzheimers Society or Age UK ? I have found them very supportive if I've had any concerns. If they don't know thy always "know a man who does"

Just a thought from me though.
You say you have been told it's likely your Dad will need 24hr nursing care. If this is so he would be entitled to Continuing Health Care which is paid by NHS.

Good luck

Thanks.

We haven't contacted anyone yet. Social carers only told us on Friday that Dad may need long term nursing care.

I'm not aware of Continuing Health Care. What's the difference between this and Dad just being being unable to look after himself at home, even with carers 4x per day?

 

[JonBelfast]

Someone needing nursing care does not mean they will qualify for CHC funding, in fact that is very hard to get, as evidenced from threads on this forum, but they should get the £155/week FNC funding, which is granted by going through he same assessment.

Do you have LPA? Without it you couldn't even sell the property and would have to apply to the COP for permission.

Is the £155 pw FNC funding in addition to care fees being reduced by pension received?

We have a court certified LPA for Mum and a LPA for Dad, both for all powers.

 

[Yellowduck]

Assuming the law is not different in NI.

You and your sister don't own any of the property until after either parent passes away. Then I assume, if it set up as we have done ours, is that the deceased persons share passes to the two of you.

So, if both parents are in care and neither live in the property, then it can be sold to pay home fees. Alternatively, if you do not wish to sell, you could look at a DPA with the council, whereby the charges for both parents accrue against the property.

I could see this getting complicated when the first one passes, as 50% of any remaining value at the time, will pass to you and your sister.

 

[nitram]

This

(We are joinly named in tenancy in common)

Made me think you each owned a share.

If both parents were in residential care there would be an empty house jointly owned by them.
I think it would be very hard to stop the LA forcing the sale unless a DPA (deferred payment agreement) could be arranged, this may not be an option in NI.

Filial responsibility is when children are legally responsible for care fees of parents who cannot afford them, common in many European countries, unlikely to apply in NI but mentioned it just in case it did.

Once again you need expert advice on the legislation in NI.

 

[JonBelfast]

Assuming the law is not different in NI.

You and your sister don't own any of the property until after either parent passes away. Then I assume, if it set up as we have done ours, is that the deceased persons share passes to the two of you.

So, if both parents are in care and neither live in the property, then it can be sold to pay home fees. Alternatively, if you do not wish to sell, you could look at a DPA with the council, whereby the charges for both parents accrue against the property.

I could see this getting complicated when the first one passes, as 50% of any remaining value at the time, will pass to you and your sister.

Thanks. This is what I assumed and feared the situation might be. That being the case, we're obviously looking at any ways to avoid or mimimise the fees. I am aware that if Dad goes into Temporary nursing care there is no charge for 12 months but that would depend on if there was a prospect of him getting home at some stage. Also I understand that for the first 12 weeks of care the house capital is not included.

 

[nitram]

I am aware that if Dad goes into Temporary nursing care there is no charge for 12 months

This does not apply in the rest of the UK.
Discussing the 'what ifs and therefore' is less than helpful unless the discussion relates to NI legislation.

 

[Kevinl]

The rules in NI seem to be pretty much the same as the rules in England, almost exactly the same in terms of how your contributions are worked out and the figures they use.
FNC is different though, it's called HSC and is only £100pw.
K

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/article...nd-your-residential-care-or-nursing-home-fees

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/paying-your-residential-care-or-nursing-home-fees