Mum mid-stage Alzheimer's, I am her carer, have LPA joint and individual with mum's (now retired) solicitor. I've not worked for three and a half years (cared for 5) and am now facing real financial difficulties as a result. I am considering applying to CoP for permission to receive some payment for caring. If I go back to work paid carers will have to replace me at great expense to mum. Mum has fairly substantial assets. I have a monstrous sister who is a drug addict and has fought tooth and nail against me having the PoA - including serious allegations (abuse, theft, mental instability etc etc) every few months to the police, social workers, GPs, the other attorney and OPG. I've been 'investigated' several times and always completely exonerated, even congratulated on good financial management and good care. The CoP require close relatives to be notified if an application is being made unless there is a good reason not to. I know if my sister is told about the application she will go ballistic thinking I am getting money and she is not. She does no caring, just visits sporadically and causes mayhem. She has told so many malicious lies in the past I am sure she will do so again. She will also subject mum to endless complaints and blaming as that is what she always does, which is incredibly stressful for mum (and for me). The other attorney is not that keen to get involved really, having had his own run-ins with her in the past. He's not sure if the LPA allows making payments or not notifying sister without Court approval. What I need to know is what kind of evidence might the Court need in order to justify not notifying my sister of an application? I assume they can't just take my word for it. I've no legal knowledge or experience and the forms are a bit daunting. Any suggestions or experience welcomed.
CoP unsure what approach
- Thread starter fortune
- Start date
Hello,
I have just read your message, and note that you already have a Lasting Power of Attorney in place which I assume you have registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. Normally people only approach the Court of Protection where there is no such LPA in place, and so is there a reason why you are considering this approach ?
If you have not already done so I would first contact the Office of the Public Guardian to seek advice on what is and is not possible under an LPA.
Hope this helps,
Paco
I have just read your message, and note that you already have a Lasting Power of Attorney in place which I assume you have registered with the Office of the Public Guardian. Normally people only approach the Court of Protection where there is no such LPA in place, and so is there a reason why you are considering this approach ?
If you have not already done so I would first contact the Office of the Public Guardian to seek advice on what is and is not possible under an LPA.
Hope this helps,
Paco
hi @fortune
the link below is to OPG guidance to Deputies, but may give you some useful pointers
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
you say the OPG and COP are well aware of the situation with your sister so they may understand your wish for her not to be notified
you may have a stronger case if your co Attorney would at least confirm their agreement to your request
you say your mum has substantial assets so I guess she's not likely to need any other funding for her care
I'd contact them and ask straight out (you can do that anonymously if you phone); I've found them helpful in the encounters I've had
the link below is to OPG guidance to Deputies, but may give you some useful pointers
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
you say the OPG and COP are well aware of the situation with your sister so they may understand your wish for her not to be notified
you may have a stronger case if your co Attorney would at least confirm their agreement to your request
you say your mum has substantial assets so I guess she's not likely to need any other funding for her care
I'd contact them and ask straight out (you can do that anonymously if you phone); I've found them helpful in the encounters I've had
The OPG has a practice note on 'Family care payments' relating to Deputies.
It briefly mentions Attorneys
The guidance applies to deputies appointed by the court under a finance and property order. The position of attorneys acting under a lasting or enduring power of attorney will depend on the specific powers granted under the power. However, attorneys may find the factors to consider a useful guide when making best interest decisions about payments for care.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
You could read the guidance and then contact the OPG for further information.
The OPG cannot give advice only factual information.
It briefly mentions Attorneys
The guidance applies to deputies appointed by the court under a finance and property order. The position of attorneys acting under a lasting or enduring power of attorney will depend on the specific powers granted under the power. However, attorneys may find the factors to consider a useful guide when making best interest decisions about payments for care.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
You could read the guidance and then contact the OPG for further information.
The OPG cannot give advice only factual information.
Update - I asked the OPG for advice and they said " you should not put yourself in a position where your personal interests conflict with your duties." So I can be a carer or an attorney but not both? There is no other family member who would be willing or able to do either. This seems completely unrealistic, in fact ridiculous. OPG also said I must apply to the CoP.
You have already mentioned that you are doing the best for your mum, have you applied for attendance allowance & or carers allowance ? Feel for you in your situation but it appears that you are doing everything by the book, keep doing it that way & hopefully it will work out for you.
Last edited:
Yes mum gets AA and I get CA. But CA is not enough to live off! I feel quite awkward even talking about money, but there is no way round it. TBH I see it that there is an army of carers who are paying a huge financial penalty to do the right thing. And I am increasingly irritated by the way the narrative of 'aren't carers wonderful' is effectively a way of saying 'so they don't need paying'. It's just not realistic or practical. Or good for the carer/caree relationship
That is not what they are saying at all. You need to read the links you have been given in this and your other thread you started.
In order to protect everyone involved you need to apply to CoP for permission to pay yourself from your Mum's funds.
I agree with Pete - it's not that you can't do it, but you need to get permission from the cop first.
I quite agree @fortune - CA is peanuts. Have you checked that you are getting all the benefits that you are eligible for?
|Im sure you are allowed to do this, but I suspect that because there is a conflict of interest (effectively you are paying yourself using your mums POA), you need to get a ruling from the COP.
|Im sure you are allowed to do this, but I suspect that because there is a conflict of interest (effectively you are paying yourself using your mums POA), you need to get a ruling from the COP.
The COP are likely to agree in line with the link I posted earlier which only applies to deputies
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
Also note that the exemption for tax and NI by the HMRC only applies to deputies
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-status-manual/esm4016
although I believe it was under review.
If the amount paid does not take you over your allowance there will be no tax due, NI could still be due, this employment may have an effect on your CA.
Unless the law has changed you will have to be formally employed, this could mean a third party having to be appointed to employ you to protect the donor's interests
For starters you could email the OPG stating the application you wish to make to the COP and asking what forms you should submit. You could also check the fee which would probably be £400
You could also email HMRC asking how they would view any payment to you if authority was granted by the COP.
EDIT
Just read my previous quote from https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
The position of attorneys acting under a lasting or enduring power of attorney will depend on the specific powers granted under the power.
pondered about the 'specific powers' bit and concluded that a COP application would not be needed if the power contained a suitable clause permitting gratuitous payments.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
Also note that the exemption for tax and NI by the HMRC only applies to deputies
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-status-manual/esm4016
although I believe it was under review.
If the amount paid does not take you over your allowance there will be no tax due, NI could still be due, this employment may have an effect on your CA.
Unless the law has changed you will have to be formally employed, this could mean a third party having to be appointed to employ you to protect the donor's interests
For starters you could email the OPG stating the application you wish to make to the COP and asking what forms you should submit. You could also check the fee which would probably be £400
You could also email HMRC asking how they would view any payment to you if authority was granted by the COP.
EDIT
Just read my previous quote from https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...payments/pn2-family-care-payments-web-version
The position of attorneys acting under a lasting or enduring power of attorney will depend on the specific powers granted under the power.
pondered about the 'specific powers' bit and concluded that a COP application would not be needed if the power contained a suitable clause permitting gratuitous payments.
Last edited:
