Using Donors Money for 'Granny Flat'

[love.dad.but..]

This "Despite her being fairly well off, they still said it would be a deprivation of assets" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it. if she's "fairly well off" then the LA may well never become involved in paying for her care so no deprivation of assets will have occurred.
If you had applied for LA funding then they may tell you this is the view they would take, but they would say that wouldn't they? If the extension costs £40k and year in a care homes in the area costs the same then it's a good use of the money if it works for just one year.
K

It would be interesting to know what the OPG view is and if the FIL is wealthy enough for the OP to know he would never require funded care even if still yet to live a lengthy life in middle or advanced stage then seems a reasonable thing to do. If he never needs a care home and reaches end of life then any added value to the house is purely academic isn't it unless there are other siblings who may have a different view?

 

[jenniferpa]

I don't understand why you feel you would need to spend £400 and use a solicitor to go through CoP? That would only be the case if you wanted to apply to be a CoP Financial Deputy but you don't need to do that if your wife already has an LPA in place!

I think perhaps you may not be aware that if you want a formal ruling from the cop relating to the scope of an lpa, or to do something that might incidentally benefit an attorney, which is really the issue here, it is entirely appropriate to apply to the cop hence the fee.

Whether it is strictly necessary for this I think will be dependent on if there are any other family members who might take issue with it. The op has now explained that his fil is unlikely to require financial support from the la, so they won't be raising questions. But there might be others who might.

 

[Stroller]

If your wife already has an LPA, a mere phone call to the OPG for advice is all that is required. I don't understand why you feel you would need to spend £400 and use a solicitor to go through CoP? That would only be the case if you wanted to apply to be a CoP Financial Deputy but you don't need to do that if your wife already has an LPA in place!

Incidentally, I was categorically warned by SS not to build an extension to my home when my Mum came to live with me, as it would be increasing the value of my home with her money. It was never my intention to do so as I wanted her to be in the house with me as part of the family and I wanted to be able to hear her in the next room at night if there was a problem which I wouldn't be able to do in an extension. Despite her being fairly well off, they still said it would be a deprivation of assets, so I would be very careful if I were you.

Thanks Tryingmybest
I have contacted the OPG with my request. They advised me to fill in a COP1 form with the help of a Solicitor along with the £400 fee.

 

[Stroller]

For those that have even vaguely mentioned Deprivation of Assets can they please provide one example, just one will do, of where DoA has been used by an LA when someone has built a "Granny Flat" that is obviously the cheaper option than a CH.

How on earth can that be using money to avoid CH fees?

Thanks Pete
'One example' is provided further on in the thread by 'Tryingmybest'
There seems to be divided opinions which is not a suprise.
I need someone who has actually attempted this solution.

 

[tryingmybest]

Thanks Tryingmybest
I have contacted the OPG with my request. They advised me to fill in a COP1 form with the help of a Solicitor along with the £400 fee.

Sorry but I think they must have misunderstood you as a CoP1 form is to apply to be a Financial Deputy for someone who has lost capacity when there is not a an LPA in place. The fee of which is £400. Alternatively, this form can be used to make a request for the Court of Protection to give a ruling in relation to the validity of an EPA or LPA. Is there a problem with the LPA? If not, I suggest you contact them again.

Unfortunately, I have to say I have been given incorrect advice on several occasions by people in the offices of both CoP and OPG, when I was involved in a complicated CoP case for my Mother, which took many months and to which I had to attend 3 hearings. I would definitely call them again or send an email.

 

[Stroller]

I agree with Pete, building a granny flat whether it works out long term or not is a deprivation of assets nor is modifying your home with things like stair lifts.
One thing I would say is do some research before you draw up the plans or you might get hit with 2 lots of council tax as a flat/annex can be defined as a separate household, there are a list of criteria like if there are separate front doors, cooking and bathing facilities and the like which could be a problem as should the flat be empty you would still be liable for CT on it.
Best to describe it as an extension I would think.
K

Thanks Kevinl
I think you meant 'Not a deprivation of assets'

 

[jenniferpa]

@tryingmybest : I'm afraid you are incorrect. Cop1 is also used for "any other orders" which would probably be the appropriate category, although I suppose it could also be "Application relating to a statutory will, codicil, gift(s), deed of
variation or other settlement of property" since this could be construed to be a gift.

 

[Steve115]

Sorry Stroller but I have to take you back to Beate's reply. From diagnosis I had always said that my wife would not go into a NH. But things can change very quickly.

Last February we installed a stairlift which helped greatly until November when my wife was admitted to hospital. It had always been an expectation that she would return home but with significant help for her and for me.

She went into respite care for 10 days while SS sorted out a lot of changes to the house and providing a lot of equipment. At an estimate £7k has been spent by SS sorting everything out.

Two weeks ago it was agreed that my wife would not be able to return home as her nursing and care requirements are too complicated. This significant deterioration took only just over 9 weeks. I think the Beate is probably correct. We do not know what is around the corner with this disease and when it changes it changes rapidly.

I now have an unused stairlift that is only 9 months old but has no second hand value and assorted equipment supplied by SS that is completely unused and may be discarded.

And now of course the questions about who will pay are arising. If you can do the work and still be in a position to pay in the event that a NH place is required then no argument otherwise I suspect that the feedback from others regarding deprivation of assets may become quite pertinent.

 

[tryingmybest]

A CoP1 is definitely the form to apply to be a COFinancial Deputy for Property and Affaird

I think the problem is that you are using the donors money to improve your own property. I agree that this would be good value from the CoPs viewpoint and if the donor will be self-funded to the end this will not be a problem.

The trouble come if the donor lives in the care home much longer than anticipated and runs out of money. There was a thread recently from someone whose parent had lived in the care home for 7 years and had gone down to the upper limit. The LA, however, said that the money should have lasted a lot longer and would not pay. The poster had CoP deputyship, so could justify that the money had been spent in the PWDs best interest (though they did not say what it was spent on). The LA, however, was claiming Deprivation of Assets, I think this sort of thing might become more common as the LAs become more and more strapped for cash.

Exactly Canary. There is no way of telling how long the PWD will live and at what point the money runs out. I can only say what I was personally advised and I was warned not to consider it.

 

[tryingmybest]

@tryingmybest : I'm afraid you are incorrect. Cop1 is also used for "any other orders" which would probably be the appropriate category, although I suppose it could also be "Application relating to a statutory will, codicil, gift(s), deed of
variation or other settlement of property" since this could be construed to be a gift.

As I understand it and from having gone through a lengthy CoP situation myself for my Mother, the Cop1 and the supporting documents would only be required if there was not anything in place already and the person was deemed to lack capacity. An application to either become a CoP Deputy/ or an application relating to a statutory will etc/or an application for an urgent decision for the court to decide would, again, only be necessary if there was nothing already in place. An LPA is currently in place so I wouldn't want Stoller to fill in these lengthy forms, pay £400 and incur further expense from using a solicitor if it's not necessary which I don't believe, in this instance, the information he was given is correct. I therefore think it pertinent to email them to have this clarified as I have had so much conflicting information dependent on whom one speaks to! I hate to say it but so many people are not sufficiently trained in our Government departments.

 

[canary]

Yes, I know what you are saying @tryingmybest because I filled in those forms to get CoP deputyship, but I dont think anyone has suggested to stroller that he fills in the whole lot. I believe that the one that has been mentioned (COP1) is the form to apply to the CoP to make a decision about something. Usually this is to ask them to make a decision about awarding deputyship, but it can also be used about something else. I remember that one of the questions on that form was what decision do you want the court to make (or words to that effect)?

The reason for this is that he will be using the POA to do do something that, as well as benefiting the PWD, will add to the value of his house so it could be construed that he is also using the POA for his own benefit.

I think this is what jenniferpa was saying.

 

[Moggymad]

Thanks Canary
I agree he is in the middle stage. We are fully aware of the pitfalls on this journey.
My FIL is a wealthy man and DoA would not come into it.

I agree with Pete, building a granny flat whether it works out long term or not is a deprivation of assets nor is modifying your home with things like stair lifts.
One thing I would say is do some research before you draw up the plans or you might get hit with 2 lots of council tax as a flat/annex can be defined as a separate household, there are a list of criteria like if there are separate front doors, cooking and bathing facilities and the like which could be a problem as should the flat be empty you would still be liable for CT on it.
Best to describe it as an extension I would think.
K

An elderly gent I know has moved with his son & family into a house with an annexe. They both had properties which were sold to buy this one. They have just found out that the annexe is considered a separate property & this has affected the stamp duty paid & council tax. The annexe has its own council tax but the elderly gent is exempt so the overall CT bill to pay has turned out to be lower. Similarily with the stamp duty.

He did have carers for a while following a hospital stay & they had access via the annexe front door where a keysafe is fitted. I think the setup currently works well & he is happy to have his family so close by. There is an internal door so he can have access to the rest of the house if he wants to.
I have been wondering myself what would happen if in the end he needed a nursing home as I think most of his funds were used to buy the house. I know they don't intend their dad to ever go into care but I have noticed the difficulties they already experience since his continuing decline. They are listening out all the time in case he needs help despite him having a pendant to press (which he forgets) & his own landline. He is a very independent person & doesn't like asking for help.

I wish you well & hope it all works out for you.

 

[jenniferpa]

Exactly @canary

 

[Pete R]

Thanks Pete
'One example' is provided further on in the thread by 'Tryingmybest'

I am not sure that is really an example. Being told by SS means nothing (there are many examples om here of SS not knowing what they should). Only Finance and Legal can make such decisions and only after a financial assessment takes place which I hope & imagine you are a long way off from.

I do think some on here are getting a tad confused with Deprivation of Assets to avoid Care Home fees and your obligations as PoA and not benefiting from your position. They are two distinct things.

There was interesting case highlighted on here a few weeks back. Not the same circumstances as yours but does relate to what people/PoA's can do with their own money.

Eldelry Woman with £250,000 in assets from house sale gave away £74,000 in gifts to family. She lived longer than expected and when assets reached the upper threshold the LA refused help which was later overturned by the courts.(Edit. Not the courts the Ombudsman.)

The report is well worth a read..........
https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/threads/deprivation-of-assets.107214/#post-1496681

 

[canary]

There was interesting case highlighted on here a few weeks back. Not the same circumstances as yours but does relate to what people/PoA's can do with their own money.

Eldelry Woman with £250,000 in assets from house sale gave away £74,000 in gifts to family. She lived longer than expected and when assets reached the upper threshold the LA refused help which was later overturned by the courts.

I couldnt find this pete. I tried googling too and couldnt find it. Do you gave a link?

I did find this, although I noted that it was in Scotland.
https://www.covermagazine.co.uk/cover/news/2146149/deprivation-assets-court-favour

 

[Pete R]

The link to the thread is here.
https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/threads/deprivation-of-assets.107214/#post-1496681


If this is the one you mean then I do not think you have read it correctly.

 

[Pete R]

I did find this, although I noted that it was in Scotland.
https://www.covermagazine.co.uk/cover/news/2146149/deprivation-assets-court-favour

Different circumstances really. The lady gave her property away which amounted to £16000 which were all her assets.

 

[Pete R]

Duplicate

 

[canary]

Thank you for that link pete, I must have missed it the first time round

If this is the one you mean then I do not think you have read it correctly.

Is this addressed to me? Im afraid I dont know what you mean.
I gave the link I quoted to show a different outcome when DoA is alleged
It strikes me that DoA is a very grey area and I can see more of these allegations happening in the future

 

[Theresalwaystomorrow]

My thoughts would be NO.
We were going to do this 7 yrs ago and I’m so glad we didn’t because there’s no way my mum with Alzheimer’s can now be left unattended.
You really don’t know how bad the pwd is going to get and you could be doing all this and pwd needs 24hr supervision and you could not leave them at any time.
I totally understand where your coming from and with all good intentions but seriously if we had done that it would now not work.
Making room in your house as it stands now is the only way if you want to be prepared to do the 24hr care later without having any finiancial chief on your back .