Financial Question

[anonymouse]

MIL probably has dementia. Behaviours indicate this, but she is refusing to be assessed.

SIL, who cares for her does not have PoA, but has set up internet banking on MIL’s accounts and manages them that way.

There are other issues with SIL, who has not ensured that MILhas proper medical care or is safe at home, but I am uncomfortable about her using the bank accounts without PoA.

What do others think?

 

[lemonjuice]

Well at some point you may have to be referred to the Court of Protection, so I trust she is keeping meticulous records and can justify any expenditures. Bringing up this in conversation may make it easier to talk about the importance of having PoA for financial affairs of someone else.

 

[Sam Luvit]

Well, the bank wouldn’t be happy, as she has no legal right to use it. Also, as someone else has access to her bank account, if your MIL was scammed by another person, they could refuse to help as they can show your MIL has given your SIL access, so couid have given it to other people

Can you ask your MIL’s doctor to call her in for a “well woman” check up & assess her then. At least you wouId have the start of a diagnosis.

If you are concerned, you could contact Adilt Social Care & ask them to check on your MIL. As she is a “vulnerable adult”. You can ask them to keep your contact confidential

 

[anonymouse]

MIL refuses to see the GP, she is housebound and he wouldn’t come out to her anywhere as she is not a medical emergency.

I have spoken to Adult Social Care, but that’s a dead end too as they say they can’t donanything without the person’s consent.

There is no decision making process going on, but MIL just refuses everything straight out; medical care, OT support; a gardener; a care package etc etc.

 

[Pete R]

................................but I am uncomfortable about her using the bank accounts without PoA.

If as you say your MiL is refusing everything how do you think her finances should be dealt with if this arrangement makes you uncomfortable?

 

[anonymouse]

I don’t know to be honest. I’m just uncomfortable with the way things are currently being done and the fact that SIL is effectively pretending to be her mother. I don’t think SIL is siphoning money off, because she’s said that it’s really building up now because MIL costs so little to feed. Although her children have talked about PoA themselves, they have never spoken to their mother about it and, to be honest, I’m pretty sure she would not agree, although I don’t think she has the capacity anyway to understand, reason and make that decision. I think she needs a capacity assessment. Everything seems to hinge on this, but of course we can’t get one without her agreement and she won’t agree. When she was in hospital recently, one of the doctors said he would write to MIL’s GP and recommend that he refer her to the Memory Clinic, but he didn’t actually do it and none of her children who were there at the time know who he was, so they can’t follow it up.


I think I may have derailed my own thread.

 

[Pete R]

I don’t know to be honest. I’m just uncomfortable with the way things are currently being done and the fact that SIL is effectively pretending to be her mother. I don’t think SIL is siphoning money off, because she’s said that it’s really building up now because MIL costs so little to feed. Although her children have talked about PoA themselves, they have never spoken to their mother about it and, to be honest, I’m pretty sure she would not agree, although I don’t think she has the capacity anyway to understand, reason and make that decision. I think she needs a capacity assessment. Everything seems to hinge on this, but of course we can’t get one without her agreement and she won’t agree. When she was in hospital recently, one of the doctors said he would write to MIL’s GP and recommend that he refer her to the Memory Clinic, but he didn’t actually do it and none of her children who were there at the time know who he was, so they can’t follow it up.


I think I may have derailed my own thread.

When my Mom first started to have difficulties with Banking and paying bills I set up, with her approval, internet banking for her. I used it most of the time asking her if it was alright each time I changed something. This worked out most of the time and problems only occurred when she had to speak to someone on the phone who she would have tell that it was OK for them to speak to me. As her dementia progressed this became problematic at times although always workable.

Eventually with her 2 banks I went into the branch with Mom where she signed a form saying it was OK for me to have access and for them to speak to me direct.

This method and the way your SiL is doing it is not the correct way but sometimes it is the only way.

I eventually got PoA for Mom when she was very poorly in hospital. Capacity to understand what she was signing only had to be at that time. She had forgotten some minutes later. I was fortunate in that family and friends all agreed so there were no objections.

Maybe time for you to give your family a friendly kick to get things sorted properly and before it is too late.

 

[Risa]

I can understand why SIL is doing this as she is between a rock and a hard place. In your shoes, I would want to say to her in a nice, non-accusatory way that she should get the POA in place to protect herself. Supposing for example, MIL accuses her of theft? SIL would want to show she was legally allowed to handle her Mum's finances. Just an idea to help you - my family had a discussion about POAs with Mum and we were all very positive about the benefits and we had printed out enough copies of the form for everyone to sign then and there. This encouraged Mum to agree to sign and of course, her form was the only one that was sent off.

You mention that you don't think your SIL is looking after your MIL's medical needs or her safety at home but then say your MIL refuses all help. From a carer's point of view, I view it that your SIL may be doing the best she can but has very limited options open to her. Please don't judge her but offer your support and help instead. As a family you should work together to put constant pressure on the GP to get her assessed and don't take no for an answer.

 

[anonymouse]

I would love to get everything ’sorted’ and know that my MIL is safe and properly looked after, but she’s not my mother and I have been told it is nothing to do with me. I realise that my SIL has taken on the task of caring for her mother, and her brothers have been happy to let her do it. However, it is clear that she is completely and utterly out of her depth and is making herself vulnerable in the process. All she does is parrot that her mother doesn’t need to be in hospital, which isn’t the issue here. I would be happy to help and support, but she’s not interested.

I would like to see all three of them encourage their mother to have her health needs looked after, to have an OT assessment (again) and this time to accept what is offered, to have a personal alarm, to allow people onto the property to do repairs and maintenance, but none of them will.

I would also like to see a PoA in place, but I fear it has been left too late and MIL would not be able to understand it, even if any of her children would try to discuss it with her. Also, as her only contacts for the last three years are family, we would need someone like the GP to certify, which brings us back to the fact that he won’t come out to see her, she refuses to see him anyway and she is unable to consent to a change of GP. After attempting, and failing, to have a conversation with MIL about changing GPs, I am confident that she is not currently able to make decisions in her own best interests.

I was ready to make a report to Social Services, which is a horrible situation to be in when it’s your husband and his siblings, but if they can’t do anything without MIL’s consent, which is what they told me, it seems that nothing can be done to protect her and we have to wait for the inevitable traincrash.

I think the answer to my original question has been covered though. It’s not ideal and we should have had the PoA conversation a long time ago.

 

[Sam Luvit]

Just to clarify, from the .gov site

https://www.lastingpowerofattorney.service.gov.uk/home#/guide/topic-certificate-providers

A certificate provider is a safeguard. They help to make sure that all's well when you make your LPA. They must confirm that:

• you understand the significance of the LPA
• you have not been put under pressure to make it
• there has been no fraud involved in making the LPA
• there is no other reason for concern

If possible, they should discuss your LPA with you in private, without attorneys or other people present, before they sign to 'certify' their part of the LPA.

Who can be a certificate provider
A certificate provider must be 18 or over and either:

• someone who has known you well personally for at least 2 years, or
• someone with the relevant professional skills and expertise to be able to confirm the things listed above

So her GP is not the only person who can be the certificate provider. Someone that has known her for over 2 years, who at the time of signing, can say she understood what she was signing.

I got Mum to agree by saying I was doing one for me, as it’s good to have in place for the future.

 

[anonymouse]

Thanks, I am aware of the requirements for signing the Certificate, but we have two problems here.


Firstly, I am not convinced that MIL would be able to understand the concept of PoA, and retain any information she might be given for long enough to make a reasoned decision. I had originally volunteered to prepare the forms, but having spent an afternoon with her and found her rambling and incoherent and unable to answer a yes/no question, I said I did not feel able to prepare the forms until someone with the requisite knowledge could assure the family that there are no capacity issues.


Secondly, since MIL elected to be housebound, three years ago, her contacts outside the family dwindled very quickly to nothing, so there is no lay person who meets the criteria, which leaves us with the GP but, as I say, she refuses to see him and he won’t come out to her anyway.


We did our PoAs years ago, when we did our Wills and I am so glad we did.

 

[Beate]

If you cannot do a POA, you will have to get down the deputyship route - costly and onerous but often the only choice left.

 

[anonymouse]

I can’t see that happening somehow.

Crucially, would MIL have to agree to this as well?

 

[nitram]

I can’t see that happening somehow.

Crucially, would MIL have to agree to this as well?

No, a deputyship is applied for when the person has lost capacity.
A COP3 assessment of capacity is included with the application certifying incapacity.

 

[anonymouse]

So that’s the only situation in which we can get her assessed without her consent?


“The practitioner may be a registered: – medical practitioner, for example the GP of the person to whom the application relates; – psychiatrist – approved mental health professional – social worker – psychologist – nurse, or – occupational therapist.”


The next question would have to be, how do we get someone out to see her when she will not consent to seeing anyone, the GP will not come out anyway and MIL cannot consent (we’ve tried) to changing GP? Can we just plough on, change her GP for her and go for it?


That sounds too good to be true, so I’m guessing it is.

 

[nitram]

She does not have to give permission to be assessed, she has to be put in a position where somebody can assess her.

Well woman appointment with a doctor who is willing to collaborate?

As you suggested change of GP and an initial consultation? Would she agree to ask for a change?

The GP can charge, there is no national fee.
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/fees/mental-health
A quick random look indicates you could expect ~£100
http://www.cedarsmedicalgroup.co.uk/info.aspx?p=1

Some GPs are reluctant to assess because they do not want to get into any future legal entanglements.

 

[anonymouse]

OK, so we need to get her into a position where she can be assessed. I've got that. That's the root problem.

Current GP is a sole practitioner.

Can we just change her GP without her agreement at this point, where she is assumed (if I understand it right) to have capacity and to be able to make her own decisions? I have asked her straight out, whether she would like to change her GP as she is so hostile to the current one, she is making allegations against him and he has clearly not fulfilled his duty of care. She could not answer that question, so I rephrased it and asked again, and then did the same again. She was completely unable to answer the question.

 

[nitram]

OK, so we need to get her into a position where she can be assessed.

Together with somebody both qualified to make the assessment and prepared to do it.
Tell them that the COP3 is to be used in support of a Deputy application.

If the assessment is that she has capacity, you are back to LPAs and her refusal to cooperate.

 

[Sam Luvit]

Could you ask around for local GP’s who are good with dementia. Get some recommendations, maybe meet them (if that’s even possible), then when you find one that fits the bill. Is understanding, gets dementia & might be if some use, suggest to her that Dr X is really nice & your old friend Y just loves him/her, so it might be better for you to see them

Offering choices is rarely good with dementia as they’ve either forgotten the first choice or the question by the time you’ve finished asking :-(

Could you suggest that she needs to change to someone nearer & that’s why you are looking

 

[anonymouse]

Sam, I've done all that. I did this ages ago and passed the information to my husband, who then didn't speak to MIL about it. I found a GP who will do home visits for the housebound, who has looked after my friend's mum really well. I've spoken to the surgery and they would be happy in principle to take her on. When she made a sexual allegation against her current doctor at the same time as the hospital were suggesting he had been negligent, I went and spoke to her about it. However I phrased it and however I asked it, she could not answer the question.

Incidentally, I am not surprised by the allegation she made against the GP. She has also made a particularly nasty allegation against a deceased family member which, if it were true, would mean that she had totally failed to protect children in her care when she was much younger.