Extortionate Carehome/Nursing fees

[redshank]

We have received a bill today from the council relating to the new nursing/care home that we've moved my MIL into. She was previously in a care home and has had to be moved into a changed behaviour unit as she's become aggressive and agitated. The bill has come today and it's costing us £5,000 per month!!! We've had a meeting today with the CPN relating to CHC and there's no way MIL will supposedly get funding as she's apparently not bad enough! Even though she's aggressive and agitated and doesn't have any idea as to who/where/what is going on. My hubby is at 30,000 ft and climbing! He can't believe that his Mum who was a nurse for over 23 yrs and worked her socks off now will lose her complete house to care/nursing fees and it will take only about 2 yrs before this happens. She's moved from a carehome that was costing us around £2,000 per month and this was probably better accommodation than now!! The new care/nursing home is so very basic, it has no pictures on the wall, her drawers are broken. The bed is basic and she sits in a chair in a room that desperately needs decorating and she's looked after by staff who most of them are probably paid minimum wage, probably apart from the one Nurse who gives her the one tablet per day!! All for £5,000 per month!!! I can't believe it. We are seriously considering our options! Should we take her out of the care home and get private nursing for her in our home?? Please does anyone have a similar situation. We are going to speak with the council tomorrow first of all.

 

[Yellowduck]

If you have not already sold her house, could you not look at deferred fees and rent out her property. At least this will give you some additional income until she passes.
Also, I have been advised that if the council places her in a home they often get reduced rates for bulk placements over what you would get if you approached the home direct.

 

[redshank]

If you have not already sold her house, could you not look at deferred fees and rent out her property. At least this will give you some additional income until she passes.
Also, I have been advised that if the council places her in a home they often get reduced rates for bulk placements over what you would get if you approached the home direct.

Thank you. We have not sold her house yet as we don't feel it's right! We have already accrued over £30,000 in fees over the last few years. Unfortunately we would have to pay out to have her house upgraded for renting, a new boiler, electrics updated, new carpets and new kitchen and unfortunately this is costly. We feel completely duped by the system and now with the fees at £5,000 per month it's just awful. We are heartbroken with the fact that her and her husband worked hard all their lives to own their own home, sometimes working 2 jobs. If she had cancer she would be looked after....sorry! But that's how it feels. We will consider speaking with the care home about private rent rather than going through the council if thats what you mean? Thank you for your advice.

 

[redshank]

Thank you. I think we can't get over the fact that she has moved recently (July2017) into this new place and the fees are now at £5,000 per month where before we were paying £2,000 per month in one that is around 12 miles away and the current place is not in good condition at all. If there were flowers and trees and pictures on the wall and it was decently painted and had a drawer unit that worked that might just go half the way to justifying but because the people that are in it all have challenging behaviour it looks like something out of the Victorian times. In fact my hubby is going to take pics tomorrow when visiting and start discussions with our local MP. It's not good enough!! Thanks and sorry to moan.

 

[SnowWhite]

I feel very sad for your Mum, especially as she was a nurse herself. It isn't good enough but who can we complain to? I am ahead of you in that we have recently sold my Mums house to pay for her care. She is in hospital and currently homeless while we wait for a nursing home place which she will have to pay for.

The whole Care home business horrifies me. I have looked at about 13 now and have been quite shocked at what I've seen and what people are being charged. I read every CQC report before I go and sometimes they bear no resemblance. Even those that are "good" acccording to CQC have been very poor.

We were in a similar position to you. Mums home was spotless but dated and would have needed a lot of money doing it up to rent up and we didn't fancy that idea.

 

[Moggymad]

Thank you. I think we can't get over the fact that she has moved recently (July2017) into this new place and the fees are now at £5,000 per month where before we were paying £2,000 per month in one that is around 12 miles away and the current place is not in good condition at all. If there were flowers and trees and pictures on the wall and it was decently painted and had a drawer unit that worked that might just go half the way to justifying but because the people that are in it all have challenging behaviour it looks like something out of the Victorian times. In fact my hubby is going to take pics tomorrow when visiting and start discussions with our local MP. It's not good enough!! Thanks and sorry to moan.

Interesting website to have a look at is Which? Elderly Care Website. Lots of good information on all aspects of care choices & costs & who to complain to.

 

[Kevinl]

We will consider speaking with the care home about private rent rather than going through the council if thats what you mean? Thank you for your advice.

It's the other way round I think, if you pay via the LA you pay their cheaper rate, if you pay the fees yourself direct to the home then you pay the higher "self funding" rate.
My wife's home is just over half the amount you mention and they take people other home have kicked out of other homes for being too challenging, one has a habit of spitting in the carer's faces and throwing her pads around for example.
I'm not interested too much about how the home may look to an outsider, I know they decorated the lounge in August but it's back to how it was, wheelchair marks on the doors, chips where people have thrown things and all the rest...but it's always clean.
My main thing is that today we had 5 qualified nurses and 7 carers plus the activities coordinator and the domestic and kitchen staff all for 28 residents. Plus 2 of the newer staff doing a dementia course in the other unit, out of uniform but getting paid.
Most of the money goes on wages and EMI nursing means a lot of staff plus they need training more so than a residential or nursing home.
I don't know if you're aware but in a nursing home you can get Funded Nursing Care (FNC) which is about £155pw and is much easier to get than CHC.
K

 

[Shedrech]

hi redshank
I guess no-one is happy that our parents' savings and homes have to go towards paying for their care, but that rainy day they were saving for has arrived, and personally I accept that - my dad always paid his way in life, and he continues to do just that - I am proud of him that he set himself up so well that I don't have to worry about his finances; he'd be more unhappy to think I was under pressure than that he still is paying for himself

the fees of your mum's previous home were, at less than £500 a week, some of the lowest recently mentioned here, certainly much lower than those dad is paying - and my guess is that currently your mum's fees are partly for a nursing component, but mostly in consideration of her challenging behaviour - many homes simply will not accept residents whose behaviour is challenging to staff and other residents - it might be that the furnishings and decor also reflect how residents use their environment, though I am not excusing the lack of repair and maintenance, and certainly not saying you shouldn't discuss these with the manager - hopefully the staff will be able to manage your mum's behaviour in a way that was not happening/possible in her previous home, and help her settle

if the fees have been negotiated or brokered through the Local Authority, they are likely to be lower than those charged to residents who are self-funding and privately arranged their move into the home

I appreciate that it's hard to clear and sell a parent's house which may have been the family home for decades; fortunately dad had only recently moved into his house, so there was little sentiment involved in the sale - I just wonder whether your mum wouldn't rather you sell the property than get into financial stress or debt yourselves - then, at least, your and her finances would be wholly separate

best wishes

 

[redshank]

If you have not already sold her house, could you not look at deferred fees and rent out her property. At least this will give you some additional income until she passes.
Also, I have been advised that if the council places her in a home they often get reduced rates for bulk placements over what you would get if you approached the home direct.

I feel very sad for your Mum, especially as she was a nurse herself. It isn't good enough but who can we complain to? I am ahead of you in that we have recently sold my Mums house to pay for her care. She is in hospital and currently homeless while we wait for a nursing home place which she will have to pay for.

The whole Care home business horrifies me. I have looked at about 13 now and have been quite shocked at what I've seen and what people are being charged. I read every CQC report before I go and sometimes they bear no resemblance. Even those that are "good" acccording to CQC have been very poor.

We were in a similar position to you. Mums home was spotless but dated and would have needed a lot of money doing it up to rent up and we didn't fancy that idea.

i think

I feel very sad for your Mum, especially as she was a nurse herself. It isn't good enough but who can we complain to? I am ahead of you in that we have recently sold my Mums house to pay for her care. She is in hospital and currently homeless while we wait for a nursing home place which she will have to pay for.

The whole Care home business horrifies me. I have looked at about 13 now and have been quite shocked at what I've seen and what people are being charged. I read every CQC report before I go and sometimes they bear no resemblance. Even those that are "good" acccording to CQC have been very poor.

We were in a similar position to you. Mums home was spotless but dated and would have needed a lot of money doing it up to rent up and we didn't fancy that idea.

Interesting website to have a look at is Which? Elderly Care Website. Lots of good information on all aspects of care choices & costs & who to complain to.

Interesting website to have a look at is Which? Elderly Care Website. Lots of good information on all aspects of care choices & costs & who to complain to.

Interesting website to have a look at is Which? Elderly Care Website. Lots of good information on all aspects of care choices & costs & who to complain to.

Thank you Moggymad. We will have a look.

Snowhite - We have been going through this now for over 3 years and it's a complete minefield! So stressful and hard to manage, even the invoicing is so unclear about what you are actually paying for! Good luck with your journey as it is one that is into the unknown! Thanks for replying.

 

[Selinacroft]

That's why I 'm still caring for Dad at home- to keep my home. Cheaper to give up work than stay in work and buy a house- what a choice.

 

[Pickles53]

There are definitely issues that you can raise with the home here - if furniture is damaged, it could be a risk to your mum so that should be addressed. It may be that you could personalise her room with some of her own things, a lot of homes encourage that so it may be why the room appears quite basic. It could also be because some residents have a tendency to wreck their rooms. However, the most important issue is the staff. Are there enough of them to safely look after all the residents and are they trained well enough to cope with challenging behaviour? If your mum seems reasonably calm, content and well-cared for, I think that matters more than fancy decor. You could look at other places which provide a similar level of care if you still feel unhappy.

The cost understandably has surprised you because it's so much more than the previous home but that was a lot less than anywhere near here and we're not in an expensive part of the country. A standard chain hotel would charge up to £100 just for an overnight stay, so really when you add in all the other costs especially if staff are qualified nurses it's not that unreasonable in itself. The comparison with other illnesses is often made, but it's always the case that the non-medical costs are self-funded. A friend of mind with MS for example was in a very similar situation with his personal care needs. The contrast just seems very stark because there is relatively little that the NHS can do medically compared to the treatments available for other illnesses. My view is pretty much like Shedrech's; I was just relieved that the money was there when my mum needed it.

 

[Scouts girl]

I agree with all that has been said. We all begrudge having to sell our loved ones home to pay for care fees but that is the law now and there is nothing we can do to overcome this. I am pleased the money was there to enable me to get the best care for my mum now that she is on end of life care. The home she is in is a bit frayed around the edges but is homely and the care staff, who work under a lot of pressure are wonderful both as a great support for me and as an excellent care for mum. I have made some great friends there both with the staff, management and residents and their relatives and that has helped me to try and cope with this awful illness that my dear mum is going through. Don't worry about the cosmetics of the home ( unless of course there is a safety issue with broken furniture etc., then of course that needs to be addressed) it is the care that matters most and having a good relationship with the staff. Read the CQC reports by all means, but don't take them at face value, go with your instincts and 'nose'. I have visited homes in the past that have had both good and outstanding reports but would never have dreamed of moving my mum to some of them!

 

[LizK]

My mother was in a care home for 9 months and my husband has been in a nursing home for 18 months. We have paid £87,000 so far out of our savings for his care. I feel that my mother's house being sold and paying for her care was fair as she was in need and it was hers to do as she wished. My husband's fees feel much worse, as that money was our savings carefully accrued over many years. It's very difficult to sort out his and mine after 52 years together splitting everything equally. He worked 45 years and I worked 39. I had to sign that we had enough savings for 3 years care. Although we have had a joint account for 45 years I feel I can't use it and only allow standing orders to come out of it. Everything else I pay out of my savings. I can assure you that it's much harder than my mother's situation.

Liz

 

[AlsoConfused]

Liz, I'm a bit worried about what you've said. The rule of thumb is that your assets as a couple get split down the middle (excluding the home which you're still living in so that's protected), with both of you retaining half. I understood you to be saying that you're actually paying some of the bills which ought to come from your husband's share of the money from your own "share". If you do that you'll leave yourself short and without funds should you need care at a later stage.

Please tell me I've misunderstood you.

 

[SnowWhite]

My Mum was paying £650 a week for her "care" home. Regulars will know that we have now removed her. By coincidence my husband met the son in law of a woman who has just moved into my Mums old room in the Care home and guess what? they think it's marvellous as it only costs her £30 a week!!!

It's definitely not "marvellous" but I guess he's saying that because he's got his wife to himself again and they don't have to be responsible for her care PLUS of course it's hardly costing anything. It's actually classed as "needs improvement" with CQC.

 

[Kevinl]

By coincidence my husband met the son in law of a woman who has just moved into my Mums old room in the Care home and guess what? they think it's marvellous as it only costs her £30 a week!!!.

I would think that £30pw is a top up not the actual cost, presumably the LA are funding and the top up is £30 which is very cheap, I seem to remember one place asked for over £600pw top up if the LA are funding.
K

 

[SnowWhite]

I would think that £30pw is a top up not the actual cost, presumably the LA are funding and the top up is £30 which is very cheap, I seem to remember one place asked for over £600pw top up if the LA are funding.
K

Yes, that's correct. All she has to pay is £30 as the LA pay the rest.

 

[Lizzie H]

Interesting website to have a look at is Which? Elderly Care Website. Lots of good information on all aspects of care choices & costs & who to complain to.

This is such a good site we are all in very similar situation's.My father-in law was recently hospitalised due to an incident at his home,he lives alone and is extremely independent.Whist in hospital he was diagnosed with dementia and we were told that if he was to go home he would need a care package which he point blank refused he has now ended up in a care home which is costing £945.00 per week which we are having to use from his saving's.He is unaware of the cost and think's that he is living there for free as he was in hospital.He has a very short fuse and can get extremely nasty he has lived a very frugal life and will not spend money if he can avoid it.He has turned against his Son and my-self (his Daughter-in-law) and blames us totally for the position he is in all he want's is to return home which as I said earlier he cannot do with-out a care package although now the home is saying he needs round the clock care.If he found out how much he was paying and that it was coming out of his saving's he would go complety mental as I said he has a very nasty temper.We looked at another home which would have been ideal for him and quite a bit cheaper as where his is at the moment specialises in dementia and the resident's are at a quite advanced stage but he refused to move.My Husband and I are at our wist's end the saving's run out in five month's we only ever thought we would have to sell his house after he had passed away not while he is still with us and the thought of selling it behind his back is just unbearable. We do not won't to go down the rental route besides the house is in a sad state and would need a lot of money spending on it.Rant over.

 

[SnowWhite]

This is such a good site we are all in very similar situation's.My father-in law was recently hospitalised due to an incident at his home,he lives alone and is extremely independent.Whist in hospital he was diagnosed with dementia and we were told that if he was to go home he would need a care package which he point blank refused he has now ended up in a care home which is costing £945.00 per week which we are having to use from his saving's.He is unaware of the cost and think's that he is living there for free as he was in hospital.He has a very short fuse and can get extremely nasty he has lived a very frugal life and will not spend money if he can avoid it.He has turned against his Son and my-self (his Daughter-in-law) and blames us totally for the position he is in all he want's is to return home which as I said earlier he cannot do with-out a care package although now the home is saying he needs round the clock care.If he found out how much he was paying and that it was coming out of his saving's he would go complety mental as I said he has a very nasty temper.We looked at another home which would have been ideal for him and quite a bit cheaper as where his is at the moment specialises in dementia and the resident's are at a quite advanced stage but he refused to move.My Husband and I are at our wist's end the saving's run out in five month's we only ever thought we would have to sell his house after he had passed away not while he is still with us and the thought of selling it behind his back is just unbearable. We do not won't to go down the rental route besides the house is in a sad state and would need a lot of money spending on it.Rant over.

Yes, there are very many of us Lizzie! My Mum was very cross at how much she had to pay out for her care because to her (and me actually) it is a massive amount of money. unlike your FIL she doesn't get "nasty" but it does upset her. When you think they paid their taxes and NI for all those years and now there's no help for them in their old age. I daren't even add up how much she's paid out in home carers (before she went into care) then her "care" home. The only crumb of comfort is that her hospital care has been free. The nursing home I have her name down for is about £800+ a week and I feel inclined not to even tell her as she will only get upset.

That generation HAD to budget their money carefully and my Mum kept a housekeeping book all her life until she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Every penny was accounted for as her and Dad never had any money over to save. They just kept their heads above water and no more and neither drank or smoked and the first holiday we had was when I was 16! Dad grew all our veg and fruit and Mum was a very good cook who could make a great meal from very little.

 

[Shedrech]

hello @LizK
I'm with AlsoConfused about being concerned that you dare not access funds that you need for your own present expenses and for your future
Don't feel that just because you have signed a piece of paper that you have to run down your own share of the marital savings, that is simply not fair on you, and not in accordance with how a Local Authority should carry out a financial assessment concerning care fees
is it possible to do a quick calculation of what was available when your husband moved into his care home, split that amount in 2 and place your half in a separate account in your name - if nothing else, split what is available now and separate that
have an account of your own for your own income and also pay into it half of any private pensions your husband has - even if your husband's care were fully funded by the LA, you would have a right to 50% of his private pensions, and more if you simply could not live off that - plus your husband can fund half of any maintenance bills for the house, as he still shares that asset, and so the responsibility for its upkeep
if you're not sure how to go about all this yourself, maybe a family member might help? - or have an accountant look into it for you, spending a small amount to get the finances sorted out may save you thousands in the long term
even if your husband's savings fall below the threshold for the LA to begin to and then fully fund his care, you could, if you wish, pay a top-up if that were the only way to keep him in his current care home - but that may well be less than just paying your savings out regardless
apologies for sticking my oar into what isn't really my business, but I get so concerned that some carers are so fearful of the 'deprivation of assets' issue that they don't take care of their own financial welfare, which is just as important as the person's for whom you care
best wishes