Self funding - Should I have to sell the house abroad?

[lemonjuice]

"To access the Deferred Payment Scheme this will require the original
charge (tenants in common) to be deferred and all parties having to agree
to your authority having a charge on the property."

I understand this to mean that as each tenant in common owns a share they have a charge on that share and that they have to agree to this charge being overridden by the LA charge.
I may of course be wrong, that's my layman's view.

I know it's a bit of a side-track, but from what you've written there that by allowing the LA to 'override' their own charge that the other 'tenant-in-common' could end up with less than their original share? In which case why would anyone not want to sell the house as soon as possible? Thus preserving the amount the amount they might need to purchase a future home for themselves on the death of their partner, when the house will have to be sold to repay the deferred payment. Because as we know people with Dementia do live a much longer time inneed of full-time care than any other condition.

 

[nitram]

The family don't want to sell the family home.
The LA charge is an amount not a share.
What is the life expectancy of the care home resident?
Are any other funds available?
Each case is different.

 

[lemonjuice]

Having just read up that the 'deferred payment' is due just 90 days after their death, it really can't ever be consodered a good choice. Just 3 months to sell a house, even supposing one had a buyer straight away would be very quick and presumably one would then have to accept extremely low offers because of having to repay the debt within the time-frame and then constantly hassling your solicitors to ensure it went through very quickly.

 

[nitram]

If the spouse not going into care stays in the house they may be able to pay off the charge rather than selling the property on the death of the person in care.

As I said each case is different and has to be thought through in detail.

 

[Dayperson]

Dad is fuming and it looks like we're returning and mum will end up in a foreign care home after all the NI and tax we've paid over the years in the UK.

The problem we have is we cannot claim benefits therefore with no income and help, it does not make financial sense to stay in the UK or we can only stay without any carers and killing ourselves to look after mum and be self employed at the same time.

If mum had not been so ill, dad would have cleared the house and started to get it sold (if it will sell) but without care we have had no choice but look after mum 24/7 and I fear one of us will drop down dead from it.

 

[Pete R]

Having just read up that the 'deferred payment' is due just 90 days after their death, it really can't ever be consodered a good choice. Just 3 months to sell a house, even supposing one had a buyer straight away would be very quick and presumably one would then have to accept extremely low offers because of having to repay the debt within the time-frame and then constantly hassling your solicitors to ensure it went through very quickly.

The 90 days is not finite.

Recovery of Dept by an LA is covered by Annexe D of CA2014.

 

[jugglingmum]

after all the NI and tax we've paid over the years in the UK.

There are many people who have paid tax and NI in the UK for their entire working lives who don't get care fees funded, to some extent the ones who have paid the most ultimately as they are more likely to own their own home and the surviving spouse of a couple will end up self funding.

It isn't fair but many of us who post on here will have hard working parents who saved carefully their entire lives, who now have to pay for care.

I am just thankful my mum isn't aware of this.

 

[Kjn]

my parents are in the jugglingmum position , if mum needs help she won't get help having paid half NI bringing up family , dad worked since 15 , his will left her the house.
...and mil will be fully self funding having paid half NI , worked part time bring up family here but fil worked in raf then full time til 76 died leaving her their hard worked for home. She Will get no help.

Currently dads NH is £950 a week.

 

[Kevinl]

My aunt's care costs £4541 per month plus personal expenses - hairdresser, foot care, toiletries, etc. Would care in France necessarily be cheaper?

Problem is that in France the children can be made to contribute to the parent's care costs by law and the state can reclaim any costs they incur from the estate of someone who dies in care as I understand it from my French son in law.
As the OP has moved back to the UK then there is also the rule that you have to be registered as a French resident and have spent at least 6 of the past 12 months in France before you can get any help.
His widowed mother is French and when I asked about care home he said about !,000-2,000 per week. As part of his medical training he'd worked in an a "CANTOUS" (Centres d'Activités Naturelles Tirées d'Occupations Utiles) which I understand is the same as the EMI nursing home my wife is in, but he then said the standards are much, much higher.
The other thing he said was that in France using a care home is very much the states last resort and that care at home is much better organised than it is in the UK.
K

 

[Pete R]

Yes I knew house was in France but an asset is an asset either here or abroad.

An asset for sure but not a Home and certainly not one that can have a Legal Charge put on it at the UK land registry.

Even if the property were in the UK you cannot get a DPA if you are still living in it and want care at home.

You have to be a resident of a CH, have under £23250 in other assets and the property cannot have been disregarded because a qualifying relative lives there.

 

[Pete R]

Dad is fuming and it looks like we're returning and mum will end up in a foreign care home after all the NI and tax we've paid over the years in the UK.

The problem we have is we cannot claim benefits therefore with no income and help, it does not make financial sense to stay in the UK or we can only stay without any carers and killing ourselves to look after mum and be self employed at the same time.

If mum had not been so ill, dad would have cleared the house and started to get it sold (if it will sell) but without care we have had no choice but look after mum 24/7 and I fear one of us will drop down dead from it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing especially if you can foretell when someone is going to get any illness let alone Dementia but my advice would be to make a final decision on where you all intend to live. Constantly moving from one country to another will not help your dilemma nor your Mum's health and needs.

It matters not one iota how much has been paid into the UK coffers as residency is the qualification for benefits and access to the NHS. I would imagine that France is quite the same.

If you and/or your Dad have been intransigent with the Local Authority over their assets then they can refuse to help however they cannot just abandon your Mum.

Have you asked them about any respite care she could have whilst the sale of the house is sorted or if permanent care is needed they should support that and get their money back later. You need to work with them and not fight them to get the best possible care for your Mum.

Good Luck.

 

[SnowWhite]

I had to sell Mums house this summer to pay her care home fees. It was very sad for us all.she had used up her small amount of savings and I didn't want to go down the deferred payments route so we were lucky it sold quickly.

My mum and dad had nothing when we were growing up but always worked, didn't smoke or drink and we never had holidays or luxuries. They managed to buy their ex council house with a small amount of money an uncle left them and a huge discount from the council.

It isn't fair but there we are, it has to be done.

 

[Scouts girl]

Yes I too had to sell my mums house recently to fund her care fees. I could not tell my mum I was doing this as it would have been too upsetting for her. I didn't want to go down the DPA route either as it was so expensive and knew that eventually the outcome would be that the house would have to be sold anyway. My mum and dad scrimped and saved to buy their house and both worked so hard during their lives but hey ho that is how it is with paying for ones care fees these days and no matter how sad it is there is nothing that can be done if we want the best care for our loved ones.

 

[carlton ann]

I too had to sell my perents bungalow to cover care home fees. They moved into care together in March 2016. Dad was brought up so poor he had no shoes for school, food were rabbits that the family kept, they fetched coal off of slag pits. Moving on as children myself and brother had no holidays and dad wasnever at home working all hours so he ddidn't loose the family home. He is 91 mum is 85, now money is coming out monthly for their care. I know others will be seeing this and saying that it's happened to their loved ones. Dementia it's not fair.

 

[Saffie]

I know that it seems unfair but it is the parents who own the house and their need of it is over. However, they do still need to live somewhere safe, have food, heat and usually care of one sort or another at the end of their lives. This is what a care or nursing home provides and that has to be paid for and surely it is a good thing that parents have the means to be be able to do this so that they can live out their remaining days in comfort and safety.

 

[eddiesgirl]

I know that it seems unfair but it is the parents who own the house and their need of it is over. However, they do still need to live somewhere safe, have food, heat and usually care of one sort or another at the end of their lives. This is what a care or nursing home provides and that has to be paid for and surely it is a good thing that parents have the means to be be able to do this so that they can live out their remaining days in comfort and safety.

You put it very well, Saffie.

 

[jaymor]

I know that it seems unfair but it is the parents who own the house and their need of it is over. However, they do still need to live somewhere safe, have food, heat and usually care of one sort or another at the end of their lives. This is what a care or nursing home provides and that has to be paid for and surely it is a good thing that parents have the means to be be able to do this so that they can live out their remaining days in comfort and safety.

You are so right Saffie, that's how it should be.

 

[Shedrech]

hi Dayperson
would it be possible to settle in a cheaper part of the country where house prices aren't so high, to make the most of the proceeds from the sale of the property in France - and look into properties with a shared ownership scheme, though there are generally rules regarding to whom they will offer the share

there must have been a reason for you all to return to the UK, and however tricky things may be in the short term, it will be financially costly to keep moving and hard for your mother

 

[nitram]

I absolutely agree with Saffie's view.

Regarding the OP's future plans I think they need to get definitive official statements on their personal residency and entitlements in both France and the UK.

There are actions they can do to influence this eg renting a property in the UK while still owning a property in France does not help with obtaining UK habitual residency, proof that the French property is on the market may help.

In the UK, and maybe in France, there is a waiting period before some benefits are available.

If they overcome the habitual residency problem, and are clear of any time delay, they are broadly the same as permanent UK citizens, the French property is an asset and would have to be sold.

In France to be treated like French residents they need something like a titre de séjou, they may already have this or may have had it and forfeited the right when the left France, or perhaps they are just on holiday in the UK.

They also have to consider the ever changing familial responsibility in France.

In general in France only 70% of medical treatment is free (this does not apply to certain long term illnesses), you can get the other 30% covered by purchasing a mutuelle.

The French are very proactive in health care, as has been said for long term illnesses they prefer treatment at home.

When it comes to hospital treatment they are very fast and also very different to the UK.

As an example an expat, fortunately having purchased a mutuelle, experienced chest pains on a Friday, the GP sent him to Flers by ambulance (20km), Flers then sent him to Caen (60km), a coronary artery bypass graft on Saturday, transferred to Deauville (64km) for convalescence on Tuesday, transferred back home (124km) on the next Saturday. His wife had either to sit by the phone waiting for it to ring or spend hours driving around northern France and staying in motels. In practise my daughter did a lot of the driving.

 

[Pickles53]

You are so right Saffie, that's how it should be.

Totally agree Saffie. Very well said. You save for a rainy day....and dementia is a downpour. I was so relieved that my mum had a house to sell when the crunch came; it enabled us to have much more freedom of choice over when she should move and where she moved.