Council refused certified LPA copy

[AD123]

So I am applying for Deferred Payments for MIL and sent the documents off. Today I received them back with a letter stating that

"unfortunately I am unable to accept a copy of the Lasting Power of Attorney document and I would be grateful if you could provide the original/certified document please"

The document I sent was a solicitor's certified copy of LPA. Does anyone have any idea why they would refuse this before I call them Monday?

 

[Beate]

Because they are stupid? Just tell them you've been advised never to give the original out of your hand and that the copy you provided is one legally certified by a solicitor, so could they please tell you exactly what's wrong with it in their opinion?

 

[cragmaid]

It is possible that their regulations mean that they must have sight of the Original or an OPG certified copy, rather than one certified by another source, particularly in the case of a Deferred Payment Arrangement. This is similar to a mortgage as it is a loan secured on the property.
I did have to produce the original to both the LA and to the Solicitor acting for us on the sale of Mum's house. It was copied and returned to me by registered post without problem, but if you want, I'm sure you could take the forms in, and wait while they are copied and reurned to you, checking each page to ensure they are fully returned.

I'm sure it's just someone being a jobsworth, but sometimes it's easier to concede and save your energy for other battles.

 

[AD123]

Because they are stupid? Just tell them you've been advised never to give the original out of your hand and that the copy you provided is one legally certified by a solicitor, so could they please tell you exactly what's wrong with it in their opinion?

That was exactly my reaction considering they are also telling me the Buildings Insurance is not valid either which has puzzled the insurance company

 

[AD123]

It is possible that their regulations mean that they must have sight of the Original or an OPG certified copy, rather than one certified by another source, particularly in the case of a Deferred Payment Arrangement. This is similar to a mortgage as it is a loan secured on the property.
I did have to produce the original to both the LA and to the Solicitor acting for us on the sale of Mum's house. It was copied and returned to me by registered post without problem, but if you want, I'm sure you could take the forms in, and wait while they are copied and reurned to you, checking each page to ensure they are fully returned.

I'm sure it's just someone being a jobsworth, but sometimes it's easier to concede and save your energy for other battles.

The application just stated I could send either the original or a certified copy. No mention of needing to have sight of the original.

 

[nitram]

Was it just stamped 'certified' and a signature added or correctly annotated and signed on each page?

3.-(1) The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be proved by means of a copy which-
(a) is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other device for reproducing documents in facsimile ;and
(b) contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the donor of the power or by a solicitor or stockbroker, that is to say-
(i) a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and complete copy of the original ; and
(ii) if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27/pdfs/ukpga_19710027_en.pdf

 

[AD123]

Was it just stamped 'certified' and a signature added or correctly annotated and signed on each page?

3.-(1) The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be proved by means of a copy which-
(a) is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other device for reproducing documents in facsimile ;and
(b) contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the donor of the power or by a solicitor or stockbroker, that is to say-
(i) a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and complete copy of the original ; and
(ii) if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27/pdfs/ukpga_19710027_en.pdf

Each page has been typed at the bottom saying:

"I hereby certify that this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original" Then it's signed and beside that is has the solicitors name and the word "solicitor" then the date. It's not been stamped over it.

There's no extra certificate at the end, just the same as the other pages.

 

[Katrine]

Each page has been typed at the bottom saying:

"I hereby certify that this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original" Then it's signed and beside that is has the solicitors name and the word "solicitor" then the date. It's not been stamped over it.

There's no extra certificate at the end, just the same as the other pages.

As I understand it, "Certificate" means that each page needs to be signed and dated - it doesn't mean some additional document. It would seem that your pages have been correctly certified if every single one has the typed statement plus signature and date. However, if the first page has the solicitor's stamp but the subsequent pages do not (either an ink stamp or a crimped stamp) then it could be argued that each page has not been certified in the same manner.

I think you can only ask them what they require in terms of 'improving' the nature of a certified copy to satisfy their legal department. As has been stated above, you could take the original POA in to them in person so that they can do their own certifying.

 

[nitram]

Unfortunately that means you can't quote the Act to them.

Re building insurance, the LA will want their interest specified, this may require an additional clause to be added to the policy.

 

[AD123]

As I understand it, "Certificate" means that each page needs to be signed and dated - it doesn't mean some additional document. It would seem that your pages have been correctly certified if every single one has the typed statement plus signature and date. However, if the first page has the solicitor's stamp but the subsequent pages do not (either an ink stamp or a crimped stamp) then it could be argued that each page has not been certified in the same manner.

I think you can only ask them what they require in terms of 'improving' the nature of a certified copy to satisfy their legal department. As has been stated above, you could take the original POA in to them in person so that they can do their own certifying.

None of the pages have had the certificate part stamped. Each has been certified in the same manner.

 

[cragmaid]

Has the Buildings insurance company been advised that the property is unoccupied? I had to take out a specific policy as Mum's own insurance was invalid once the property was unoccupied for more than 30 nights.

 

[nitram]

"There's no extra certificate at the end, just the same as the other pages."

I think OP is not referring to any additional sheet but to the fact that the last sheet should have different certification wording.

 

[AD123]

Unfortunately that means you can't quote the Act to them.

Re building insurance, the LA will want their interest specified, this may require an additional clause to be added to the policy.

The LA only requested that there was an additional clause for the building if it's left empty, but this is not the case. My BIL is living there until the house is sold.

Hopefully they can explain all on Monday

 

[AD123]

So it turns out there was nothing wrong with any of the documents I sent.

They hadn't read the application form that said the house wasn't unoccupied so the insurance was fine.

Because the certifying statement on the POA was all in black (including the signature) they had thought it was a photocopy of the certified POA.

 

[canary]

So it turns out there was nothing wrong with any of the documents I sent.

They hadn't read the application form that said the house wasn't unoccupied so the insurance was fine.

Because the certifying statement on the POA was all in black (including the signature) they had thought it was a photocopy of the certified POA.

Oh good grief!!!
What a shower - you could have done without that Ill bet.



Glad its OK, though

 

[love.dad.but..]

So it turns out there was nothing wrong with any of the documents I sent.

They hadn't read the application form that said the house wasn't unoccupied so the insurance was fine.

Because the certifying statement on the POA was all in black (including the signature) they had thought it was a photocopy of the certified POA.

I have recently had exactly the same thing with Age UK funeral plan and just trying to let them know for their records that Dad is now permanent care and change of address as they require. Rather than waste more time and postage sending the certified copy back to them again I have told them to note his plan and I will deal with it when the need and time inevitably arises! Why are these people not being trained effectively in handling poa documents?

 

[RogerC]

My sympathy

So it turns out there was nothing wrong with any of the documents I sent.

They hadn't read the application form that said the house wasn't unoccupied so the insurance was fine.

Because the certifying statement on the POA was all in black (including the signature) they had thought it was a photocopy of the certified POA.

Well, I hope you gave them a real 'rollocking' for wasting your time.
I had a similar situation recently having a certified copy of an LPA refused twice, by different organisations. The first one said they would not accept it because it was certified more than 6 months ago. The second one said the solicitor had not done the certification correctly, as there was insufficient information for them to verify that the solicitor was indeed 'bona fide' (through the Law Society or some such register). Fortunately, the solicitor (meekly) provided new certified copies at no extra charge ( . . .just as well) and these were acceptable.

 

[fortune]

This is a widespread and persistent problem that affects many individuals and organisations. I had NS&I refused to accept certificated copies of a finance LPA. After months of tussling with them I complained to the financial ombudsman - who backed them up! Eventually I went to the solicitor who produced a new certificated copy with slightly different wording to meet their specific requirements. I sent this to NS&I who accepted it, promised to allow on-line access and also to return the copy. On-line access has not happened and they failed to return the PoA. I just gave up at that point.