Social worker - legal position

[bumblefeet]

Thanks Sue.
I suspect that this is indeed the case. It probably will be a case of making sure that everybody is doing their job, and I have produced a list of reasons etc., as to why she is not safe/in best interests to go home.

The whole situation is very stressful, and I'm dealing with it mainly on my own. We are all new to this as a family, and it's hard to know which way to turn, I'm so thankful that I've found this site, the wealth of knowledge is fantastic.

We have a care home in place, and they have assessed, and are happy to take her, but they won't wait forever, which is adding to the stress.
Hopefully tomorrow's meeting will be over with quickly and peacefully, and we can all move on with the next stage, it will be lovely to see mum settled.

 

[sue38]

My mum was referred to Occupational Therapist/Assistive Technology in June, and we've heard nothing. Unless your Local Authority is super efficient with no waiting lists any adaptations aren't going to happen overnight. You might ask the SW what the current waiting time is for referrals to OT.

 

[joggyb]

Thank you!

I've just spoken to Citizens Advice, and they advise that I can effectively tell the SW to shove off. She can strongly advise, but can't actually force us to do something that we don't want to. I'm still a bit unsure, because we don't have POA for health and welfare, and mum doesn't have Mental Capacity to make decisions, but I do know that she's happy to move to residential care, so I still feel stronger than I did previously.

Ah, but don't forget that you're holding the purse strings! So in that sense alone, SW can't make you do anything.

If I were you, I'd just get on and make your own arrangements, and the chances are that SW will forget you even exist esp if they don't know where your mum has gone to live...

 

[bumblefeet]

Ah, but don't forget that you're holding the purse strings! So in that sense alone, SW can't make you do anything.

If I were you, I'd just get on and make your own arrangements, and the chances are that SW will forget you even exist esp if they don't know where your mum has gone to live...

Thanks, I'd considered that too! I can refuse to contribute to any care package, no problem, but, the main thing is, she's not safe to live on her own, regardless, and the SW needs to be aware of that.

 

[Slugsta]

I hope that the meeting goes well tomorrow and that the correct decision is reached.

 

[canary]

If the SW insists that he goes home with carers x times a day, say nothing then 2 days later cancel the carers and move him into the CH

 

[bumblefeet]

I've had a very frustrating conversation with SW2 today, she called to postpone the meeting, because she doesn't have all the information. The person she needs to get a report off is on annual leave. I knew that last week, she clearly didn't.
We did discuss the situation, and I found her to be very unmovable. I told her the house is damp, and she just said that it can be fixed. I asked why she wanted to send somebody home to a damp house, and she just made a 'ho hum' sort of noise. In fact, she did that every time I asked her something that she couldn't answer.

I asked her how a pressure mat will help with wandering at night, and was told that it communicates like a pendant alarm, and will go off if the door opens. No good for an elderly lady who forgets to use her frame and goes walkabout then? Won't pick her up off the floor, will it?
I very nearly lost my temper, she was so infuriating. She couldn't tell me when the meeting was to be rescheduled to, apart from 'some time next week', which further incensed me. For somebody with my mums best interests allegedly at heart, she sure is putting her through the mill. She also states that mum is perfectly sane.
This new postponement means that she will be in rehab for another week at least, and she is already bored and fed up, although she enjoys the activities when they arise.

I've taken legal advice, and found that nobody has the authority in this situation, and that it seems to be who shouts loudest votes the other down. In fact, the solicitor who spoke to me told me to attend the BI meeting, and let her have all the evidence with both barrels, because she can't actually tell us what to do. Then politely decline her suggestions, and inform her of our decision, but attending the meeting is very important.
I've left a voicemail with SW1 at the rehab place, who hopefully will call me back tomorrow, and confirm her support, as she supported our original decision. (I won't put it as bluntly as that, I'll maybe discuss the fact that at the original best interests meeting, all parties agreed a way forward, and I wonder if that is still the case).


Canary, I will certainly be carrying out your suggestion if it comes to it, and I'm also looking at the Court Deputy issue.

 

[nitram]

Sorry but not surprised at the development.

H&W deputyship is very rare, the COP seem to prefer deal with with each problem by a separate court application.

You will just have to wait for the best interests meeting.
The thing I would be most concerned about hinges around
"She also states that mum is perfectly sane."
She definitely will ask your mum if she would like to go home, watch out for a leading question. See if you can get a statement from a consultant saying that your mum lacks capacity to make that decision as she no longer understands the meaning of home.

 

[bumblefeet]

She has already asked the question re going home, and I suspected that it was a leading question too. Mum doesn't even remember this lady visiting her. I'd be interested in hearing if SW2 had a witness for these amazing claims.

What do you mean, the COP dealing with each problem by court application? Would I have to go to court to sort this out? I thought that it was a matter of sending in the relevant forms, and paying the fees, then waiting the allotted time. The solicitor that I spoke to today gave me the impression that the deputyship would be granted under these circumstances.

Mum has also been assessed, and deemed to lack Mental Capacity, this was done last week, prior to the original BI meeting.

 

[nitram]

Unlikely that you would have to attend court.
The court could well just pass judgement on where she should live rather than granting a deputyship.

The court fee is £400 to which you have to add a formal statement of incapacity which will probably cost and the solicitor's fee of £850 (The direction only mentions property and affairs, I have assumed H&W would be similar)

Solicitors’ costs in court proceedings
...
7. The fixed costs are as follows: An amount not exceeding Category I Work up to and including the date upon which the court makes an order appointing a deputy for property and affairs. £850 (plus VAT)
...
https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-con...-–-Fixed-costs-in-the-Court-of-Protection.pdf

 

[bumblefeet]

Wow, thanks for the information, I'd just assumed that I could apply myself, as it wasn't made too clear that I needed to involve a solicitor. I clearly need to look into this further.

 

[nitram]

You don't have to use a solicitor, you can do it yourself, it takes a while to understand the forms which can all be downloaded on
http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetForms.do?court_forms_category=Court of Protection

The capacity assessment (COP3) is likely to cost between £100 and £200 although some hospital consultants do it for free. Several people won't do them as they don't want to get drawn into any prolonged legal problems if their decision is challenge in court. Several people can sign a COP3

The practitioner may be a registered:
– medical practitioner, for example the GP of
the person to whom the application relates;
– psychiatrist
– approved mental health professional
– social worker
– psychologist
– nurse, or
– occupational therapist

 

[bumblefeet]

You don't have to use a solicitor, you can do it yourself, it takes a while to understand the forms which can all be downloaded on
http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetForms.do?court_forms_category=Court of Protection

The capacity assessment (COP3) is likely to cost between £100 and £200 although some hospital consultants do it for free. Several people won't do them as they don't want to get drawn into any prolonged legal problems if their decision is challenge in court. Several people can sign a COP3

The practitioner may be a registered:
– medical practitioner, for example the GP of
the person to whom the application relates;
– psychiatrist
– approved mental health professional
– social worker
– psychologist
– nurse, or
– occupational therapist

Thank you. I have a list of the forms I need, and this was one of them, although I hadn't looked at it yet. Thank you so much for your advice and guidance.

 

[nitram]

If you do apply for deputyship you could also submit an Emergency Interim Application (COP9) for judgement on where she should live if it has been decided she should stay at home. This additional application is free, I don't know whether or not deciding place of residence would be considered an emergency or not, things like releasing cash to pay for residential care are more usual.
https://www.gov.uk/emergency-court-of-protection

 

[bumblefeet]

If you do apply for deputyship you could also submit an Emergency Interim Application (COP9) for judgement on where she should live if it has been decided she should stay at home. This additional application is free, I don't know whether or not deciding place of residence would be considered an emergency or not, things like releasing cash to pay for residential care are more usual.
https://www.gov.uk/emergency-court-of-protection

Thank you, I'd looked at this too. The solicitor that I spoke to indicated that this would class as an emergency. I'm hoping that it won't come to this, and that sW2 can be outvoted at the BI meeting. I've seriously never spoken to anybody so unmovable and uncompromising. Complaint letter already drafted.

 

[nitram]

You may find
http://www.scie.org.uk/mca-directory/files/best-interests-meetings-guidance.pdf
of interest.

 

[V-DiL]

We've had a similar issue this year but with a GP (who has more power than a SW) who decided my MIL suddenly had mental capacity (a fact that no other professional before or since agreed with). It's been v. difficult but several months on are finally getting it sorted and he has now accepted other professionals (more qualified than him in this field) and their assessments.

If you are self-funding, then it's up to you (no one is going to say your not acting in her best interests if you're paying for 24hr care, as opposed to 4 visits a day care which would be less). You can ask for a full care needs assessment (and make sure you are present), you can ask the GP for her to be referred to the CMHT (Community Mental Health Team) for a mental capacity assessment to determine who is the decision maker on her behalf. (Again, I would suggest that you are present and can give them a list of behaviours / issues that you or the care home see.

Where is her GP in all this?

I would also get advice on what happens as you don't have H&W LPA? It might be you can apply to the court of protection for it?

If you need a fast assessment of mental capacity and can afford to pay privately then try www.tsfconsultants.co.uk

The issue here is who can make the decision. Good luck.

 

[Nettieatolympic]

I could have written this as we are in exactly same position with mother. 5 weeks in respite and SW2 has deemed she has capacity when SW1 did not. Obviously mother wants to go home. The respite is in lovely new home which we thought was to be forever. They are suggesting GP meeting and the memory assessment clinic where she scored low last time but some of you say that doesnt carry much weight.
Is the capacity check easier to pass now? I think SW must have mantra to keep them in own home at all costs. We are self funding but have been told if mother wants to go home we cannot keep her in care against her will. Mother cannot run her day, she thinks carers are cleaners and sends them away and goes back to bed. Living back at home will actually see her get poorly and be back to hospital where she has already been twice this year. The NHS are actually funding social care unecessarily.
We will fight it and I have taken many notes from this thread and thank you for sharing your experiences which will support our case.

 

[bumblefeet]

Thank you for your comments.

The GP hasn't been present, it's just been all the staff in rehab, and a fantastic lady from the Later Lives mental health team, who has reviewed mum, and written a report, clearly stating her needs. She's also volunteered to attend the BI meeting, to add weight to her report.
There has been a nursing assessment done, in which it is stated that she needs 24 hour care, and an overview letter written, stating that she is most at risk at night, which is when (according to the care package), she would be alone for the longest period of time, and also minutes of a meeting typed up in which both the centre based SW and the OT guy state that if she sundowns at home to match that of the unit, then she is inherently unsafe to live on her own. It also describes her as 'alarmingly unstable' when she forgets to use her frame.

She went into rehab on 12th October, and has only slept through the night on a half a dozen occasions. Sometimes she avoids the pressure mat, and is found wandering in the corridor, with her day clothes on over her nightie.

I think that everybody in the unit is of the opinion that she needs residential care, just this 2nd SW who seems adamant on repeating the 'better at home' mantra, even given the overwhelming evidence in front of her.
I've spoken to the Alzheimers Society, and a representative will be attending the meeting with myself and my sister, for support and to take notes for us, which is fantastic.

I read her notes last night, and it was all rather sad. She seemed absolutely fine to chat too, a bit loopy, but not too bad. Then I read her notes, in which it states that she puts her underwear on back to front or not at all, her confusion, the wandering, and it puts it in perspective.
Doesn't stop you feeling like an absolute cow though.

 

[bumblefeet]

I could have written this as we are in exactly same position with mother. 5 weeks in respite and SW2 has deemed she has capacity when SW1 did not. Obviously mother wants to go home. The respite is in lovely new home which we thought was to be forever. They are suggesting GP meeting and the memory assessment clinic where she scored low last time but some of you say that doesnt carry much weight.
Is the capacity check easier to pass now? I think SW must have mantra to keep them in own home at all costs. We are self funding but have been told if mother wants to go home we cannot keep her in care against her will. Mother cannot run her day, she thinks carers are cleaners and sends them away and goes back to bed. Living back at home will actually see her get poorly and be back to hospital where she has already been twice this year. The NHS are actually funding social care unecessarily.
We will fight it and I have taken many notes from this thread and thank you for sharing your experiences which will support our case.

With the capacity check, they are given information about the particular subject that a decision needs to be made on, in this instance, going home.
They are given information, which they have to retain, (I think they have to repeat it back) then they have to make a decision based upon that information, and then crucially, explain rationally why they've made that decision.

You can't keep her in care against her will, as this would not be in her best interests. If she's in the care of the local authority, (respite), then they have a duty of care to act in her best interests. If she fails mental capacity, then the best interests meeting is held. If she passes mental capacity, then she is deemed to have the capacity to make the decision herself, and will decide to go home.
It seems that you have to create a crisis to eventually get the result that you desire.

We may end up sending our mum home for a few overnight stays, before SW2 decides that she's no better. In which time, she may well have fallen down the stairs.