Care home costs-joint savings

Cheesecake4242

Registered User
Apr 9, 2013
45
0
My Father has recently gone into a Nursing Home. He will fully fund himself for about 12 weeks from his half of the joint savings that he has with my mother. I am aware that he can keep about £23,000. He will receive £156 through funded nursing care and the day/night attendance allowance.

My mother has a small state pension of £81 per week in her own right. I know that she can keep half of his private pension (that will give her an extra £25 per week). She has an annuity in her own right which gives her an extra £30 per week. She has savings in her own name which means she is not entitled to pension credit.

Question 1; Will she be able to claim living expenses from my Father? The service fees for their sheltered flat total about £4000 per year. She will have less council tax to pay but, taking into account all other running costs (electricity, insurance), she will have to delve into her own savings to meet all these costs.

Question 2; The nursing home is accessible by public transport but she occasionally uses taxis and/or trains. Can she claim travelling expenses from his half of their joint savings?
 
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Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
The likely answer to question 1, is no. This is my experience anyway. If your father is no longer residing in the family home, then he does not contribute towards the utility bills.

If the flat is in joint names then the buildings insurance can be shared but that was all I was allowed when my husband changed from being self-funding to being subsidised by the LA. I was also penalised for sharing utility bills whilst he was self-funding too and £5,000 was deducted from his £23,250 remaining capital.

Essential building repairs (half) were also accepted as legitimate expenditure but nothing else. For example, I needed to replace the glass in a few windows where the double glazing had become misty and I shared the cost.

Regarding question 2, I doubt that travel expenses would be acceptable either though it never occurred to me to ask.

I had a meagre teachers pension of around £100 a month as I worked part time for many years and no state pension in my own right, only the married woman element of my husband's. However, I managed as I have some saving of my own.

Perhaps your LA will be more accomodating than mine but all LAs are cutting back and have to account to the public for everything they spend.
Good luck.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,084
0
Bury
"I am aware that he can keep about £23,000."

The upper limit of £23,250 is when the LA start funding care.
Between this limit and the lower limit of £14,250 a tariff income of £1/wk for every £250 or part of £250 the capital remains above the lower limit is applied.

The capital that therefore can be retained is £14,250.

Additionally a Personal Expenses Allowance (PEA) of £24.90 is allowed.

Any Funded Nursing Care (FNC) is paid directly to the home, the quoted fee quite often has this amount deducted.

FNC is currently £156.25/wk but is under review and may be reduced in January and/or April next year for some nursing homes.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-funded-nursing-care-rate-for-2016-to-2017

This could prompt homes to quote exclusive of FNC.
 

Cheesecake4242

Registered User
Apr 9, 2013
45
0
The likely answer to question 1, is no. This is my experience anyway. If your father is no longer residing in the family home, then he does not contribute towards the utility bills.

If the flat is in joint names then the buildings insurance can be shared but that was all I was allowed when my husband changed from being self-funding to being subsidised by the LA. I was also penalised for sharing utility bills whilst he was self-funding too and £5,000 was deducted from his £23,250 remaining capital.

Essential building repairs (half) were also accepted as legitimate expenditure but nothing else. For example, I needed to replace the glass in a few windows where the double glazing had become misty and I shared the cost.

Regarding question 2, I doubt that travel expenses would be acceptable either though it never occurred to me to ask.

I had a meagre teachers pension of around £100 a month as I worked part time for many years and no state pension in my own right, only the married woman element of my husband's. However, I managed as I have some saving of my own.

Perhaps your LA will be more accomodating than mine but all LAs are cutting back and have to account to the public for everything they spend.
Good luck.
Thank you for your reply. I am hoping that she can retain some of his state pension I.e The married couple's element which she would get if he died.
 

Cheesecake4242

Registered User
Apr 9, 2013
45
0
"I am aware that he can keep about £23,000."

The upper limit of £23,250 is when the LA start funding care.
Between this limit and the lower limit of £14,250 a tariff income of £1/wk for every £250 or part of £250 the capital remains above the lower limit is applied.

The capital that therefore can be retained is £14,250.

Additionally a Personal Expenses Allowance (PEA) of £24.90 is allowed.

Any Funded Nursing Care (FNC) is paid directly to the home, the quoted fee quite often has this amount deducted.

FNC is currently £156.25/wk but is under review and may be reduced in January and/or April next year for some nursing homes.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-funded-nursing-care-rate-for-2016-to-2017

This could prompt homes to quote exclusive of FNC.
Thank you.
Interesting re the FNC being reviewed next year.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Thank you for your reply. I am hoping that she can retain some of his state pension I.e The married couple's element which she would get if he died.

Oh yes, she definitely would. As I said I received that and anyway, your mother's income is not included in the financial assessment.
After my husband died two years ago, that changed to the widow's pension which is a little more.
 

LadyA

Registered User
Oct 19, 2009
13,730
0
Ireland
Not sure Kevin, but here the Widow's pension is payable to widowers and to surviving Civil Partners too, although in all cases it's means tested if you haven't paid enough of our National Insurance contributions. Thankfully, if you are on Carers Allowance here, your Insurance Contributions are credited so your contribution record isn't broken.
 
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Kjn

Registered User
Jul 27, 2013
5,833
0
Hasn't widows stopped as of April this yr.?
Something in my mind when OH was sorting fil finances when he died, mil could get widows pension but I'm sure someone on phone ..age Uk, ? Said it was ending April .
I could be wrong.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
Question 1; Will she be able to claim living expenses from my Father? The service fees for their sheltered flat total about £4000 per year. She will have less council tax to pay but, taking into account all other running costs (electricity, insurance), she will have to delve into her own savings to meet all these costs.
If your parents own the flat and it has been disregarded from the financial assessment the Local Authority have a discretion to increase your Fathers Personal Expenses Allowance to help with costs.
This Age UK factsheet "Paying for care in a care home if you have a partner" is worth a read and page 10 covers the PEA.
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E..._home_if_you_have_a_partner_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true


Question 2; The nursing home is accessible by public transport but she occasionally uses taxis and/or trains. Can she claim travelling expenses from his half of their joint savings?
As already mentioned your Father is entitled to keep £14,250 of his saving. The Local Authority cannot touch this and even if it is all spent will just assume it is still there for the Financial Assessment.

It can be used by your Father for anything he wants and at any time. If your Father has capacity he does not have to account to anyone for how it is spent. If someone is acting as Power of Attorney for your Father then they have to spend it in his best interests and wishes.

If your Father wants to pay for your Mothers taxi fare he is quite entitled to.

:)
 

Rageddy Anne

Registered User
Feb 21, 2013
5,984
0
Cotswolds
The likely answer to question 1, is no. This is my experience anyway. If your father is no longer residing in the family home, then he does not contribute towards the utility bills.

If the flat is in joint names then the buildings insurance can be shared but that was all I was allowed when my husband changed from being self-funding to being subsidised by the LA. I was also penalised for sharing utility bills whilst he was self-funding too and £5,000 was deducted from his £23,250 remaining capital.

Essential building repairs (half) were also accepted as legitimate expenditure but nothing else. For example, I needed to replace the glass in a few windows where the double glazing had become misty and I shared the cost.

Regarding question 2, I doubt that travel expenses would be acceptable either though it never occurred to me to ask.

I had a meagre teachers pension of around £100 a month as I worked part time for many years and no state pension in my own right, only the married woman element of my husband's. However, I managed as I have some saving of my own.

Perhaps your LA will be more accomodating than mine but all LAs are cutting back and have to account to the public for everything they spend.
Good luck.

Goodness, Saffie, were you really penalised for sharing utility bills when he was self funding? That seems totally wrong if he was paying his own costs.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Hasn't widows stopped as of April this yr.?
Something in my mind when OH was sorting fil finances when he died, mil could get widows pension but I'm sure someone on phone ..age Uk, ? Said it was ending April .
I could be wrong.

Well, as far as I am aware I am still receiving mine and haven't received any notification of any change.

Taken from Pete's link

Bereavement benefits are paid to widows, widowers or the surviving partner of a civil partnership. You can get a bereavement benefit if your husband, wife or civil partner died on or after 9 April 2001.

I didn't claim anything and wasn't entitled to the single Bereavement allowances anyway. However, the Registrar completed the Tell it Once form which would have notified the Pension dept of my husband's death and a form was sent which I duly completed. Eventually my Married woman's reduced rate pension from my husband's SP was increased accordingly. Whatever they call it now, it seems to be in effect, a widow's pension!
 
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nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,084
0
Bury
I got 13p a week extra when my wife died (you read it correctly, thirteen pence).

HMRC instead of adding this to my state pension decided in their wisdom that 13p/wk was now my total entitlement and sent me a new tax code.

The kind HMRC man agreed there had been a mistake and tried to change it, the system would not let him, it had to be changed by the DWP.

The DWP said it was nothing to do with them.

It took a couple of weeks of escalation to get it sorted.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
If your parents own the flat and it has been disregarded from the financial assessment the Local Authority have a discretion to increase your Fathers Personal Expenses Allowance to help with costs.
This Age UK factsheet "Paying for care in a care home if you have a partner" is worth a read and page 10 covers the PEA.
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E..._home_if_you_have_a_partner_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true


As already mentioned your Father is entitled to keep £14,250 of his saving. The Local Authority cannot touch this and even if it is all spent will just assume it is still there for the Financial Assessment.

It can be used by your Father for anything he wants and at any time. If your Father has capacity he does not have to account to anyone for how it is spent. If someone is acting as Power of Attorney for your Father then they have to spend it in his best interests and wishes.

If your Father wants to pay for your Mothers taxi fare he is quite entitled to.

:)

I know you have always advocated this Pete but I honestly don't think it would have washed with my LA. Nor would any discretionary routine allowance for cost of home maintenance though, as I've said, they would allow half of this from capital for essential work upon receipt of work completed at the end of the financial year.

I was sent a financial notification every April which, alongside other details, stated the amount my husband would have to pay to them over the coming year. I would then write back and notify them of any added expense they hadn't taken into account. This always included half the buildings insurance but not the household and, as far as I can remember, the afore mentioned windows and, on another occasion, a funeral plan.

Once the £23,250 reduces to £14,250, then the LA aren't interested in what that is used for of course - though the OPG might be! - but before that, wouldn't it just be reducing the amount of capital too quickly in their account? Presumably even if you keep a record yourself, you would still have to notify the LA or the accounts wouldn't balance.

Just a bit mystified as my LA head of finance was great at bamboozling me with numbers and yes, Anne, I had £5,000 taken away for utility bills - which would have amounted to a fraction of that- while husband was self funding as they refused to subsidise his fees until his capital reduced to £18,000. He then had the audacity to somehow to try to say that in a way it was our advantage! Hence my comment about bamboozling!
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
The CA2014 allows the discretion for an increase in the PEA. I can't remember what the rule was under CRAG.

I but before that, wouldn't it just be reducing the amount of capital too quickly in their account?
No. Once a Financial Assessment has taken place that £14,250 will always be there on paper at every update even if it is completely spent.

The LA know they only have £9,000 to take from you when you get to the £23,250 upper threshold.

In fact even if you spend it before an FA the LA can deem it to still be there if it has been spent with the intention of avoiding care home fees.

Yes whether you still have capacity or POA you still have to be careful with it as that is all you have for the duration