Still Temporary in residential care - worried

[Worrywart 2]

Hi all,
My mother went into a care home august 15 following a brain haemorrhage, she is now 77. I used to care for her but then became very ill following a perforated bowel, hence the need for the care home - I couldn't cope.
She went in on a temporary basis as they wanted to see how her brain injury progressed . It is now 14 months later and she is still temporary. The local authority pay half the fees and she pays the rest. I thought after a year she would be treated as permanent and would be liable for the full charge ( she has a property that is currently disregarded ). I phoned the council who said it's up to the social worker to say when she is permanent, I'm worried that the council will backdate the full charge to the time the one year was up.
So basically if the social worker delays in making her permanent - can the council demand full payment of the care home fees from the date she had been in the home a year.
Sorry if sounds confusing and I hope you get what I mean, I don't want any shocks as my health remains ruined following the perforated bowel.
Thank you

 

[HillyBilly]

There is an Age UK factsheet, no 58, all about charging regimes. The gist of it is, if a stay that was thought to be temporary turns out to be permanent, then the person is charged as permanent from Day 1 (excluding the 12 week property disregard). Temporary is up to 52 weeks.

Extract:
5. When temporary becomes permanent
Sometimes residential care is arranged on a temporary or short-term
basis, but it then becomes apparent that the person needs to stay there
permanently.
If this happens to you, the local authority should apply the means test for
a permanent resident from the date your stay becomes permanent. Your
care and support plan must be amended to reflect your new status. From
this moment, the value of any property you own must be disregarded for
12 weeks, but other capital and income can be taken into account.
Similarly, a stay which was initially assessed as permanent may turn out
to be temporary because, for example, you are able to leave the home to
return to your own home, to move in with friends or family, or to enter
sheltered housing. If so, the statutory guidance states that you should be
treated as temporary from the date of admission for the purposes of
charging.

Edit - re-reading that it does say "from the date your stay becomes permanent". If your Mum is still classed as temporary then you could argue...she's still temporary!...?

 

[Worrywart 2]

There is an Age UK factsheet, no 58, all about charging regimes. The gist of it is, if a stay that was thought to be temporary turns out to be permanent, then the person is charged as permanent from Day 1 (excluding the 12 week property disregard). Temporary is up to 52 weeks.

Extract:
5. When temporary becomes permanent
Sometimes residential care is arranged on a temporary or short-term
basis, but it then becomes apparent that the person needs to stay there
permanently.
If this happens to you, the local authority should apply the means test for
a permanent resident from the date your stay becomes permanent. Your
care and support plan must be amended to reflect your new status. From
this moment, the value of any property you own must be disregarded for
12 weeks, but other capital and income can be taken into account.
Similarly, a stay which was initially assessed as permanent may turn out
to be temporary because, for example, you are able to leave the home to
return to your own home, to move in with friends or family, or to enter
sheltered housing. If so, the statutory guidance states that you should be
treated as temporary from the date of admission for the purposes of
charging.

Thank you Hilly Billy.
So if they make the decision on say 1/12/16 she is permanent, when do you think they will take the house into account - 1/12/16 or 1/8/16 - the latter date being the date the 12 months is up ( she went in on 1/8/15 as a temporary resident ).
From what I understand though even if social services kept her temporary, the 12 month disregard still applies as the property can only be disregarded for 12 months whether temporary or permanent ?
Is this how you see it?
I think her social worker has left so they are very very short staffed and as mum is stable they don't feel the need to visit her, I have phoned the council but they said the social worker decides permanency.
Am I being really dim here? I don't want a big bill!

 

[Pete R]

if a stay that was thought to be temporary turns out to be permanent, then the person is charged as permanent from Day 1 (excluding the 12 week property disregard). Temporary is up to 52 weeks.

Did you mean from day 1 of becoming permanent?

 

[Pete R]

Am I being really dim here? I don't want a big bill!

Not being dim at all. I think you have it just about right.

When the SW gets round to stating in writing that your Mom is permanent then that is the day they make her self funding, the property is taken into account and a 12 week disregard starts.

My Mom was given 6 weeks reablement (which the LA funded) after the 6 weeks were up the SW made a mistake and made Moms stay temporary. I pointed out the mistake several times but when it was eventually rectified charging only began on that date and not back dated.

Mom did not get near the 52 week mark but I read it that until your Mom becomes permanent the payment arrangement she has now remains and cannot be changed retrospectively as all parties have to agree to any change.

 

[Worrywart 2]

Not being dim at all. I think you have it just about right.

When the SW gets round to stating in writing that your Mom is permanent then that is the day they make her self funding, the property is taken into account and a 12 week disregard starts.

My Mom was given 6 weeks reablement (which the LA funded) after the 6 weeks were up the SW made a mistake and made Moms stay temporary. I pointed out the mistake several times but when it was eventually rectified charging only began on that date and not back dated.

Mom did not get near the 52 week mark but I read it that until your Mom becomes permanent the payment arrangement she has now remains and cannot be changed retrospectively as all parties have to agree to any change.

Thank you. I'm just worried it's an and /or situation in so much as she is permanent when social worker says OR once she has been in the home 12 months whether she is permanent or not. It's so confusing and having had some problems with the local authority I know they would just backdate the full charge to August if they wanted to.
I'm probably overthinking, as I am ill myself and trying to minimise the possibility of future problems. I have phoned the council who said the social worker decides permanency - I have emailed the social worker and no reply as I've heard she has left!

I can't do much more,

Poor mum -what I really struggle with is she hasn't got any worse and i do question the vascular dementia diagnosis ( as opposed to a brain injury caused by the brain haemorrhage ) . I just wish I was well enough to look after her at home.

Anyway thank you all for your replies and input

 

[Pete R]

Poor mum -what I really struggle with is she hasn't got any worse............

Could that be because of the where she is now and the care she is receiving?

Get yourself well first before even thinking about caring for someone else.

I wish you and your Mom well.

 

[Worrywart 2]

Could that be because of the where she is now and the care she is receiving?

Get yourself well first before even thinking about caring for someone else.

I wish you and your Mom well.

Thank you. No the place she is at is ok and they care for her well. She thinks she works there which is good in a way but sad.
Thanks again for all your help

 

[arielsmelody]

All the information I can find about temporary residents talk about someone whose stay is unlikely to exceed 52 weeks or in exceptional circumstances, unlikely to substantially exceed 52 weeks. If your mum has already been in the care home for more than that and isn't expected to return home, it doesn't sound as if she still qualifies as temporary but that should have been reflected in her care plan.

I really think you should prepare yourself that they might come back to you and say that she was no longer temporary after 12 months, and get yourself in a position where you can cope with the bill if it came. Maybe you could argue that the house should be disregarded for an additional 12 weeks after the stay became permanent. Do you need to sell the house or get a deferred payment arrangement set up?

 

[Worrywart 2]

All the information I can find about temporary residents talk about someone whose stay is unlikely to exceed 52 weeks or in exceptional circumstances, unlikely to substantially exceed 52 weeks. If your mum has already been in the care home for more than that and isn't expected to return home, it doesn't sound as if she still qualifies as temporary but that should have been reflected in her care plan.

I really think you should prepare yourself that they might come back to you and say that she was no longer temporary after 12 months, and get yourself in a position where you can cope with the bill if it came. Maybe you could argue that the house should be disregarded for an additional 12 weeks after the stay became permanent. Do you need to sell the house or get a deferred payment arrangement set up?

Hello, I'm so sorry I missed your reply! Not sure how that happened,
You are in fact right. I phoned this morning about something else and have been told that they have factored the house in back to the point she had been there 52 weeks! I was nit advised if this despite phoning up a few days before the 52 weeks were up. I was told as she was still temporary, no charge would be applied until she became permanent, I am very disappointed. I have been trying to get hold of the social worker for months to no avail and so was just waiting for my mother to be reviewed and presumably made permanent. So it seems she is now liable for the full charge despite the fact she is temporary,
What a mess!

Thanks for your reply and o apologise for not responding sooner

 

[bumblefeet]

Sorry to hear of this situation, it must be a terrible worry.
Have you emailed the council/social worker, thus have a paper trail? It sounds like a terrible breakdown in communication, and totally not your fault.

 

[Worrywart 2]

An update -
Hi all. Well the council havenow factored in the property from November despite the fact she is still temporary - seems once they have been there for 52 weeks they are considered permanent for purposes of property. They have offered

To enter into a deterred payment scheme with the authority or
The authority can put a charge on the property to secure the cand ntinuing debt

Has anyone been through this and what can you advise. As you may recall I am recovering slowly from a perforated bowel and my own life has been blown apart. I struggle sorting my own finances out let alone my poor mothers and I don't want to make the wrong decision. She has about £15,000 in savings and the shortfall between her pensions and the care home charge is about £300 a week so we have to do something. I'm thinking deferment but now they have given me an alternative I'm not so sure.
Grateful for any advice you can offer,
Thank you

 

[cragmaid]

Financially, your Mum is in a similar position to my Late Mum.I put her house on the market and ran a Deferred Payment scheme until such time as the house was sold. In fact, the house failed to sell, although in the end my OH and I bought it to live in ( but that was a whole different story) and by that point I had about two years debt to clear. I assume your Mum is getting Attendance Allowance, and will be able to keep this while the house is selling. The DP scheme does give you a chance to make your recovery without too much pressure.
Good Luck.