Confused about a will

[Sandvikgabs]

Hi, I haven't been on the forum for a very long time due to being extremely busy. I've had some fabulous advice on here before and was wondering if anyone else has or is going through similar circumstance as myself now.
I'll be as brief as I can... Mum came to live with me 18months ago and is suffering from Vascular Dementia. My brother is joint POA with myself and has always been awkward with regards to mums potential finances when her house was to be sold. Brother didn't want SS involved with mums care incase they 'found' her money and didn't want me to apply for Carers allowance or mum to have attendance allowance for the same reason. I and mum both have our benefits and SS is involved. Then mums house was sold.
Mum made her will out in 2008 when she had full mental capacity leaving any monies to myself and my brother (before we applied for POA)The will has the word bequeath in it as in "I bequeath" My brother has taken this word to believe he can take his share of the proceeds of the sale of the house now before her death!
The day after the money from the sale was in her bank he took his share, saying he was carrying out mums wishes. I reported him to POA and an investigation ensued where he was told to put it back, which he did.
Now, my brother is appealing the decision made by Public Guardians. Has anyone else been through this? Or ever heard of anyone taking money that they believe belongs to them in a will before the person has died?
I'm leaving him to it and not getting involved with it but am confused as to why he believes he's doing the right thing?

 

[Jessbow]

As the will doesn't come into effect until the owner dies, its should, In effect, be in a sealed envelope until then. No one should really even know what it says, let alone gain from it.

She may yet need the funds for care home fees

He wont have a leg to stand on

 

[love.dad.but..]

No he cannot take his 'share' until after your mum has died and most probably if the money is substantial and held in savings etc not until probate has been applied for and received by the executor named in her will. Most institutions require probate if more than a small amount is held. Upon death the POA is cancelled and your mum's bank accounts etc are frozen apart from releasing money for funeral costs until you can present probate.So he is wrong on all counts and as an attorney is negligent in his responsibility in dealing with your mum's financial affairs in her best interests and for her benefit hence the Office of Public Guardian telling him to put it back! Honestly some siblings!!! You couldn't make it up!! Like Beate I am surprised the OPG have not considered taking his attorneyship away.

 

[Chemmy]

Jessbow is right

Definition of bequeath:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bequeath

to say in a will that (your property) will be given to (a person or organisation) after you die

The relevant word is AFTER.

 

[LynneMcV]

I can't for the life of me see why your brother believes he should get whatever is in the will in advance of the will being executed.
A will only comes into play once the person making it has passed away.

 

[Beate]

If I was the OPG I would take attorneyship away from him as he is quite clearly not acting in the donor's best interest by both stealing money (which in effect it is) and also trying to prevent her and you from claiming allowances you are entitled to. Good God, he's got a nerve. Is the POA held jointly or jointly and severally?

 

[Sandvikgabs]

As the will doesn't come into effect until the owner dies, its should, I effect be in a sealed envelope until then. No one should really even know what it says, let alone gain from it.

She may yet need the funds for care home fees

He wont have a leg to stand on

Thanks Jessbow, My brother was with her when she made out her will and I know he told her what should be in it because she told me and was very upset about it because she wanted to leave something to her Niece but he bullied her into leaving her out, but I can't prove that now because of mum's diminished mental capacity.
We're both named executors and POA needed to see a copy of the will for the investigation.
Yes you're right she may need funds for a good care home in the future and this is his 'beef' that his inheritance will go to a CH instead of to him.

 

[Sandvikgabs]

If I was the OPG I would take attorneyship away from him as he is quite clearly not acting in the donor's interest by both stealing money (which in effect it is) and also trying to prevent her and you from claiming allowances you are entitled to. Good God, he's got a nerve. Is the POA held jointly or jointly and severally?

Thanks Beate, We're both jointly and severally. POA told me that IF he didn't put the money back then they would take him to court but were prepared to 'give him the chance to do the right thing first' which he did. I personally agree with you but he is being closely monitored by them now and as long as he does what he's told they'll allow him to continue as attorney and I have to let them know if he doesn't act in mums best interests in the future which he's fuming about so getting a lot of name calling here!
I don't know how appealing the decision POA made to put the money back is going to help him though, surely if he kicks up a real stink they'll have no choice but to take it from him?? Who knows! They've been very patient and lenient with him I think.

 

[Sandvikgabs]

No he cannot take his 'share' until after your mum has died and most probably if the money is substantial and held in savings etc not until probate has been applied for and received by the executor named in her will. Most institutions require probate if more than a small amount is held. Upon death the POA is cancelled and your mum's bank accounts etc are frozen apart from releasing money for funeral costs until you can present probate.So he is wrong on all counts and as an attorney is negligent in his responsibility in dealing with your mum's financial affairs in her best interests and for her benefit hence the Office of Public Guardian telling him to put it back! Honestly some siblings!!! You couldn't make it up!! Like Beate I am surprised the OPG have not considered taking his attorneyship away.

Thanks for this, very helpful info on probate, thanks again.

 

[Sandvikgabs]

I can't for the life of me see why your brother believes he should get whatever is in the will in advance of the will being executed.
A will only comes into play once the person making it has passed away.

Thanks Lynne McV, I know! Did I mention he's also a Magistrate? You would seriously think he would know this, I don't understand and am totally confused where he's getting his info from.
Mum, bless her is totally oblivious to all this rubbish going on and mum being a legal Secretary in the past would've been able to tell him to bury his head somewhere but sadly she can't and am fighting her corner for her.

 

[love.dad.but..]

What!! A magistrate!! Lord help us all...he probably does know about these things but thinks he can just carry on his way regardless and people will cave in. Keep doing what you are doing in protecting your mum from what essentially is family financial abuse, you are doing a great job for her.

 

[Kevinl]

There is a word for what he did taking the money from your mum whilst she was still alive and it was still very much her money, I think he may as a magistrate be familiar with the word as he probably lock people up for stealing on a regular basis.
Taking the money while it still may be needed to pay for her future care would also attract the attention of the Local Authority if they ever did a financial assessment of her affairs.
As a magistrate I'm surprised at his reckless disregard for the law of the land and I hope he like porridge for breakfast, at least he'll know some of the people in there
K

 

[Sandvikgabs]

There is a word for what he did taking the money from your mum whilst she was still alive and it was still very much her money, I think he may as a magistrate be familiar with the word as he probably lock people up for stealing on a regular basis.
Taking the money while it still may be needed to pay for her future care would also attract the attention of the Local Authority if they ever did a financial assessment of her affairs.
As a magistrate I'm surprised at his reckless disregard for the law of the land and I hope he like porridge for breakfast, at least he'll know some of the people in there
K

Thanks Kevinl, Social Services are well aware of what's happened as POA asked them to come and do a mental capacity test on mum for the investigation (and another one on behalf of POA) Mum bless her quite liked all the attention and the assessors were both very good as in not asking direct questions pertaining to the 'problem' so's not to alarm her.
Apparently brother was told by a Solicitor friend that if mum was kept out of the 'system' i.e. not registered with SS for 2 years then SS would not be able to find the money or at least they may give up trying to cos it's a lot of hard work for them!
Brothers rationale is that SS pay for her care (because she has no money) then his inheritance is safe!
Brother challenging POA decision on the basis that as an attorney he is carrying out mums wishes (as in the will) and effectively doing his job as an attorney by acting in her best interests. Another angle he's using is that mum has worked hard all her life for her money to be used for care etc where in her will she states it should go to us and not SS.
Fun and games ahead! Silly man!

 

[2jays]

From Mr Google

What qualifications do you need to become a magistrate?

No formal or legal qualifications are required but magistrates need intelligence, common sense, integrity and the capacity to act fairly. Each applicant is carefully assessed for judicial potential as it is essential that a magistrate can identify relevant issues and deal with them even-handedly; establish an independent position and discuss it without either dominating the discussion or giving way to others.

Doesn't sound like your brother qualifies to be a magistrate.....

I would be tempted to report him to relevant people in the courts...

Just my thoughts


Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point

 

[Pear trees]

I have had to explain to my brother in plain English that he cannot have Mum's money until she dies and I cannot let him 'borrow' her money under POA, even if she lent him thousands before dememtia and POA (which he never paid back). I have also explained that probate can take 3-6 months minimum especially with house sale, so he can't have his share straight away
He has not seen or spoken to her in over 5 years, but will cry his eyes out at her funeral then demand his money afterwards. I am sole executor as mum knew him well.

 

[Sandvikgabs]

From Mr Google

What qualifications do you need to become a magistrate?

No formal or legal qualifications are required but magistrates need intelligence, common sense, integrity and the capacity to act fairly. Each applicant is carefully assessed for judicial potential as it is essential that a magistrate can identify relevant issues and deal with them even-handedly; establish an independent position and discuss it without either dominating the discussion or giving way to others.

Doesn't sound like your brother qualifies to be a magistrate.....

I would be tempted to report him to relevant people in the courts...

Just my thoughts


Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point

Yes I agree with you 2jays, he has no place being a Magistrate. I'm going to wait for the outcome of this appeal he's making before I decide what to do. IF he wins his appeal (which I know he won't but can you imagine the public outcry if he does win?) then see how he behaves after that (when he loses) to whether he'll take it further than just an appeal. Not sure of the system after a lost appeal, but can't see him backing down as he doesn't like being told what to do.
I've a feeling the decision to remove him as a Magistrate will be his own doing if he takes it further because of his behavour so may not have to report him...Yet.

 

[Sandvikgabs]

I have had to explain to my brother in plain English that he cannot have Mum's money until she dies and I cannot let him 'borrow' her money under POA, even if she lent him thousands before dememtia and POA (which he never paid back). I have also explained that probate can take 3-6 months minimum especially with house sale, so he can't have his share straight away
He has not seen or spoken to her in over 5 years, but will cry his eyes out at her funeral then demand his money afterwards. I am sole executor as mum knew him well.

Oh Crikey Pear Trees, What's the matter with some people?? Good for you looking out for your mum. Same here, brother hasn't visited his mum in 18 months, phones periodically but last phone call he was demanding mum phone him in future,(he;s angry now he's being questioned about his behavour) he manages to take holidays abroad twice a year and weekends away though but was told I didn't need a break!
Never tells me he's going away but you can't hide from social media, lovely photos of him lying on a beach.
Hey ho onwards and upwards eh!

 

[love.dad.but..]

I agree with 2jays he seems totally unsuitable to be a magistrate if this is an example of his moral and ethical judgement. Thank goodness you are sole executor when the time comes your mum knew she could have total trust in you to handle her affairs correctly. Please, take steps with the evidence you have to get him removed as your mum's attorney let him bluster and get angry...tough!

 

[tigerlady]

Thanks Kevinl, Social Services are well aware of what's happened as POA asked them to come and do a mental capacity test on mum for the investigation (and another one on behalf of POA) Mum bless her quite liked all the attention and the assessors were both very good as in not asking direct questions pertaining to the 'problem' so's not to alarm her.
Apparently brother was told by a Solicitor friend that if mum was kept out of the 'system' i.e. not registered with SS for 2 years then SS would not be able to find the money or at least they may give up trying to cos it's a lot of hard work for them!
Brothers rationale is that SS pay for her care (because she has no money) then his inheritance is safe!
Brother challenging POA decision on the basis that as an attorney he is carrying out mums wishes (as in the will) and effectively doing his job as an attorney by acting in her best interests. Another angle he's using is that mum has worked hard all her life for her money to be used for care etc where in her will she states it should go to us and not SS.
Fun and games ahead! Silly man!

This "solicitor friend" also should be named and shamed, and if indeed there is a loophole, then it should be firmly closed. I wonder how many other greedy relatives are being advised to keep their relatives "out of the system"
Your brother certainly should not be a magistrate if he is willing to break or bend the law for his own gain. I am shocked!

 

[2jays]

I'm willing bet he has different rules when someone on trial (or what ever it's called in a magistrates court) is doing exactly/similar as he is doing.....

Because he does know the rules when it concerns "others"




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