Did I just sign up to something ?

[yorkshirerosie]

We managed to get mum into the home we wanted.....great, however I'm worried I have signed up to something without understanding.
The social worker told me there was a top up, she explained this to mean that my mum has her contribution to make, LA make up the rest and then mum also has an agreement to pay £ per week to the home.
I have now received a contract through the post to sign saying that 3rdparty/family will be paying the £ per week top up to the care home.
What have I done?
At one of my most vunerable times have I unknowingly agreed to make these payments?
I have 3 children at home and struggle as it is so would not have willingly made such a decision but I can't move mum as she is struggling to settle as it is without me having to move her.

 

[jaymor]

Please don't sign anything until you are clear about it.

If the LA are involved in helping then your Mum will contribute her pension/s and the LA will give their contributions. If the LA plus your Mum's contribution do not cover the cost of the home you have chosen then there will be a top up and this cannot be paid for by your Mum. It has to come from a third party which is family, friend or anyone willing to pay it.

The sticky bit of this is 'the home of your choice'. Did the LA/SS give you a list of homes that their contribution plus your Mum's contribution would cover? If there are homes with vacancies with fees that would be covered and you have chosen one yourself with higher fees then the top up will be necessary.

Before signing make sure you know how things stand. Top ups like care home fees will increase over time and what is affordable today may not be affordable in a couple of years.

Jay

 

[jenniferpa]

The good news is that you haven't signed it yet.

But yes, it does sound like they are asking for a 3rd party top-up. Generally (basically unless your mother has a house to sell - does she?) the LA will pay their rate. Your mother will pay the LA all of her pensions less her personal expense allowance (approx £23 a week). If the home accepts the LA rate in full, you're golden. However it sounds to me as if they don't, so someone else (as in family) have to pay that additional amount.

The way the calculation goes is
Home charges £700
LA Pays £450
Someone else (not your mother) has to pay £250

 

[jenniferpa]

OK - I checked back and it appears your mother does have a home to sell, so your situation is a bit different. Is this the 12 week disregard bit? Are you intending to sell her home?

 

[yorkshirerosie]

Ok now I'm worried, yes the social worker gave me a list of homes but she called the next day to tell me about the top up on the one we wanted and gave her explanation. She never once explained that mum couldn't pay that top up.
Mum has a house but we haven't discussed any of that , she did mentioned something about deferred payments which I googled and took that to mean that anything the LA have paid will be clawed back when it's sold.
Now what do I do?

 

[AlsoConfused]

PLEASE DON'T SIGN THAT TOP-UP CONTRACT WITHOUT GETTING INDEPENDENT ADVICE!

Someone who understands top-ups much more than I do will doubtless give more help ...

My understanding is that the person receiving care can't pay top-up fees, they're always the family / third party's responsibility to pay. If the SW didn't explain what a top up was and didn't get your agreement to pay it, then she hasn't done her job properly and you should complain to her manager about that.

It seems odd to me this suggestion of 2 different payments being made by your Mum. Is your Mum's contribution just part of her pension please? If so, she's almost certainly entitled to all the other costs being paid for by the Local Authority - her savings and income are below the levels where she'd be self-funding.

Top up payments should be only for nice to have extras - like a nice view - not for providing the care needed in an appropriate home (eg one suitable to meet the person's physical and mental health needs, one close enough for family and friends to visit, etc).

The Local Authority can't say you need to pay top-ups because local homes want more money for new residents than the authority's prepared to pay.

 

[yorkshirerosie]

Tbh I don't even know how much the care home fees are as I haven't been given that info.
We were under pressure to find somewhere as mums carer gave 1 days notice hence why I was so vunerable

 

[jenniferpa]

OK - the reason your social worker mentioned a deferred payment agreement is because if you have one, the top-up can be included within that: it's one of the few situations where the person in care can actually pay the top-up.

So I would contact the social worker and ask about this.

from CRAG.

Residents who have a deferred payments agreement may top-up from :

Earnings disregarded by CRAG.
Income disregarded by CRAG.
Capital disregarded by CRAG.
Other capital resources, including the value of the property that is subject to the deferred payments agreement, with the proviso that the resident must be left with total capital resources under the means-test to the value of the lower capital limit and that where the value of the property is used as “collateral” for top-ups, the amount of the top- up is added to the resident’s deferred contributions. (This amount is eventually repaid when the home is sold.)

Also bear this in mind (also from CRAG)

11.010 It is advisable to carefully study the guidance in Circular LAC(2004)20 but the following are the main points relating to the charging process:
• Councils must contract to pay the full cost of the accommodation, including the top up.

So the LA must make the contract in the first place.

So don't sign anything from the care home.

 

[Cloverland]

Can be a difficult time, but as others have said do not sign until it is clear to you. Treat as respite until you understand fully.

Just to add to your information overload, have you considered chc funding, this can help towards fees. Does your mum have a private pension or receive attendance allowance. If she is self funding she will keep these as part of her income.

Sadly top ups are paid by third party as the person receiving care is not allowed to pay.

Have a read this might help unravel things for you.

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E..._permanent_residential_care_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/372545/dwp027-102014.pdf

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...rmanent_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

 

[jenniferpa]

See my post above. I've seen a couple of comments where people have said the person in care cannot pay the top-up. There are very few situations where the person in care can, but if yorkshirerosie gets a deferred payment agreement on the house then her mother CAN pay those top-ups.

 

[Cloverland]

See my post above. I've seen a couple of comments where people have said the person in care cannot pay the top-up. There are very few situations where the person in care can, but if yorkshirerosie gets a deferred payment agreement on the house then her mother CAN pay those top-ups.

I am confused now, as I have been told by SW she has a client that has to be moved because her family can no longer afford the top up fees, so moving client to an LA funded home. If this is true, will be great news for a lot of families, can you elaborate please.

 

[jenniferpa]

The information is in my above post. If there is property, if there is a deferred payment agreement then the resident can pay the top-up. Of course, that would really only apply to the 12 week disregard (because after that point, the person would be self-funded anyway, and top-ups wouldn't come into it).

This is not at all the situation you are describing Cloverland. If you (as family) agree to pay a 3p top up and you can no longer pay it, than the LA can take the position that the person needs to be moved. Now there are arguments that could be made that the move would be detrimental to the well-being of the person, and I personally would definitively make that argument, and therefore the top-up should be paid by the LA, but that's a different situation to the one in which yorkshirerosie finds herself. Essentially, all she is asking for in this situation is that the LA add the top-up that would be payable for these 12 weeks to the (not yet established but if a house has to be sold she shouldn't have an issue getting one) deferred payment agreement.

Now if the family you are talking about, Cloverland, has a deferred payment agreement in place, I'm not sure why they would have been paying top-ups in the first place unless they were badly advised (not impossible of course).

 

[yorkshirerosie]

The paperwork to sign has come from the social worker.
The CH does not offer respite.
I don't know what the "12 weeks" refers to.
I do not know how much the CH costs.


I am waiting for the finance officer to come out as mums savings will go below £10k in the next week so I think they will need to re assess the contribution mum has to make.
The social worker did mention deferred payment but did not explain what it meant, I assume it means my mum will have to sell her home at some point to repay LA and then she will be self funding until she gets to below £10k again.
On the paperwork to sign from the social worker it does mention CHC not applicable but again I don't know anything about this.
I think I may call Age UK for advice , I'm really in the dark and worried I've messed up.

 

[Jessbow]

CHC is funding that is applied to some people- your Mum must have been assessed or at least deemed not suitable for this funding- its where fees are met by the health Authority because someone needs nursing ( someone who perhaps otherwise would have had to stay in hospital long term)

I do think you need to find out what the fees are, and how much ( and why)they are asking you to top up.

I hope the finance officer will be able to help you straighten things out- Your mum might well only have 10k in the bank, but if she has assets ( such as a house) the value of them is included.

Try not to panic until you have seen the finance officer.
Its a minefield- you are not the first to get confused with it.

(hugs)

 

[jenniferpa]

When someone enters a home who doesn't have savings above the upper £23K limit, but who owns a house, they are entitled to a "12 week disregard" where the value of the house is not considered. After that point, the house value is taken into consideration. The normal way to do this is the deferred payment scheme, whereby payments made for care accrue against the value of the house.

 

[yorkshirerosie]

Thank goodness for you guys!

I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice, if I had signed and returned the forms I would have had to pay the top up but since I waited to speak to the finance officer it turns out I don't have to pay it as mum is on the deferred payment scheme.
I cannot being to think how people without help and guidance from forums such as this get on , the social worker has without a doubt made what has been a tough time extremely worse with providing wrong information and trying to tell me how to deal with my mum despite the fact she has met her 3 times.
The care home tells me mum should be nursing emi not residential but the social worker made the assessment without even seeing my mum so that is the next complaint I have to make!
Many thanks everyone!

 

[jenniferpa]

I am so glad you got that sorted out. Someone needs to take that care home to task I feel, although that could have been an innocent mistake. But the social worker needs a reprimand, since she shouldn't be making such wildly inaccurate statements.

You probably don't feel like it at the moment, but you might want to think about making a formal complaint, primarily in the hope that it will stop her doing something like this to some other person.

 

[nitram]

Well done for getting it sorted, but:-

"...The social worker told me there was a top up, she explained this to mean that my mum has her contribution to make, LA make up the rest and then mum also has an agreement to pay £ per week to the home.
I have now received a contract through the post to sign saying that 3rdparty/family will be paying the £ per week top up to the care home...

...but since I waited to speak to the finance officer it turns out I don't have to pay it as mum is on the deferred payment scheme....

...The care home tells me mum should be nursing emi not residential but the social worker made the assessment without even seeing my mum..."

LESSON
The social worker's job basically is to facilitate coordination, not to make statements or judgements in specialist areas, don't believe everything some of them say.