LPA : Is it really needed?

Dibleyblue

Registered User
Dec 8, 2014
5
0
My Mother is 84 and living in assisted housing. She has carers 4 times a day when she is home, a Dementia Day Centre which she attends 4 days a week and the rest of the week (day time) is covered by myself and my husband. I have her bank card and pay all her bills, get her shopping and sort out Christmas/Birthday presents for her family, clothes and everything else that is needed... Do I really need to organise an LPA as it is coming up between 4 and 5 hundred pounds to arrange... She is on benefits and gets housing and council tax benefit as am I... someone said that as she is more likely to go into a care home sooner rather than later, the local authority will want to know where every penny has been spent for the last 5 years and if I do not have an LPA I cannot organise her money without it. I have no problem with them checking as we do what we think is right but I was told that without an LPA we could be prosecuted for taking money out if we can't prove every payment made is with her knowledge. This is all knew to me and my husband as no one else in our families has had Dementia... I do have siblings but they do not come near or by. TIA
 

lin1

Registered User
Jan 14, 2010
9,350
0
East Kent
Hello . I do understand your concerns.
I will leave the financial assessment by SS (social services) to others but I don't think the go back very far unless the think they have found irregularities.

LPA's do not have to cost that much.
If you want a solicitor to do them , it is best to shop around as some charge more than others.
You can if you feel able, do them yourself also Places like Age uk or the Alzheimer's society can help with filling out forms

Without a finance and property LPA
If a bank thinks a person may have lost capacity to run manage their accounts, they will freeze the account.
Will not discuss anything with you regarding those accounts. till either you or someone else , could even be SS has LPA or Deputyship, I doubt if you want SS to have that sort of power.

Yes you do have to keep receipts records of expenditure its not nearly so tough as Deputyship though.
I think but am not totally sure that once the LPA has been registered, that the OPG only checks up if someone makes a complaint.

I also advise getting the Health and welfare LPA , this gives you the right for Dr's and other professionals to discuss mum with you. They cant get away with hiding behind rules of confidentiality, and believe me some do.
The health and welfare one can be very useful.when, say you are in dispute with where mum should live , people here have had that problem too.

Some people do not have to pay the full court costs of registering LPA's , sorry I don't know the criteria for that

I am sure others will be along soon with their own views, Ideas that will prove helpful .

I don't know if heard of this.. you can become an appointee for mums state pension and any benefits. you need to contact the DWP department of work and pensions.
 
Last edited:

Wendy7713

Registered User
Aug 18, 2014
11
0
I think everyone should have an LPA - finance and health. I am 58 and have dementia and completing the forms has relieved my daughters of all the emotional decisions as we've discussed and documented them. The forms do seem a nightmare to complete but if you do them in small chuncks they make more sense. You can also do them on line now so you're not faced with the mammoth amount of paperwork. If you need help and advice Age concern and Alz are akways on hand to help.
p.s. not sure if I've replied in the right box!apologies if I havn't

My Mother is 84 and living in assisted housing. She has carers 4 times a day when she is home, a Dementia Day Centre which she attends 4 days a week and the rest of the week (day time) is covered by myself and my husband. I have her bank card and pay all her bills, get her shopping and sort out Christmas/Birthday presents for her family, clothes and everything else that is needed... Do I really need to organise an LPA as it is coming up between 4 and 5 hundred pounds to arrange... She is on benefits and gets housing and council tax benefit as am I... someone said that as she is more likely to go into a care home sooner rather than later, the local authority will want to know where every penny has been spent for the last 5 years and if I do not have an LPA I cannot organise her money without it. I have no problem with them checking as we do what we think is right but I was told that without an LPA we could be prosecuted for taking money out if we can't prove every payment made is with her knowledge. This is all knew to me and my husband as no one else in our families has had Dementia... I do have siblings but they do not come near or by. TIA
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
If your mother is receiving benefits and does not own her home nor have any income apart from her pension, then she can make you an Appointee rather than have to go down the LPA path for financial affairs. This is arranged via the DWP I believe.
However, that will if course not cover health and welfare decisions.

If a private/occupational pension is involved, then yes, you do need an LPA.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
12,179
0
London
You can easily fill in the forms yourself or with the help of a charity. Registration only costs £110 per LPA but you can get a 50% reduction if the donor has less than £12,000 a year coming in - and it reduces to nothing if the donor is on certain benefits. Paying out hundreds of pounds to a solicitor is rarely necessary!

Please get both LPAs Asap! You are not actually allowed to handle someone's affairs without some form of consent and if the bank finds out they could freeze the donor's account.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,075
0
Bury
"...Do I really need to organise an LPA..."

As has been said only if there is income in addition to DWP pension and benefits.
If there is no such income all that is required is a >>>DWP APPOINTEESHIP<<<

"...as it is coming up between 4 and 5 hundred pounds to arrange..."

Your mother may be eligible for >>>REMISSION OR EXEMPTION<<< of the court fee of £110 per LPA.
Several people have drafted their own LPA.
Have a look at this >>>ONLINE TOOL<<< and see how you get on, if you want help at any point you could post on this forum or phone the OPG on 0300 456 0300. The OPG are very helpful but note that they cannot give advice, they can only answer factual questions on procedure.
The online tool does a certain amount of checking, it will not let you proceed if you fill in incompatible parts.
You could also have a go and then take the result to one of the charities for comments.

"...the local authority will want to know where every penny has been spent for the last 5 years..."

As your mother already receives various benefits I doubt that the LA will do more than a cursory examination of her financial affairs.
 

Dibleyblue

Registered User
Dec 8, 2014
5
0
Hi.. Thank you so much for your advise... as I said this is all new to me and like most people I imagine its all new to them also when they come across it... Its brilliant to be able to post on sites like this for advise.... My Mum does know what is happening in the moment so I will sort out the LPA's for both asap...whilst we can... Thank you again.
 

Zsazsa

Registered User
Jul 20, 2014
46
0
Somerset
So confused

Hello, I'm new to posting so please forgive if this is in the wrong place...I can understand Dibleyblue's confusion and concern about LPAs. I registered my husband's - he's early to mid-stage AD - and handle all the banking. Before AD he had an account into which all his pensions went, I had the same, plus a separate work account (I have a small part-time business).
We used all of them as and when for big purchases and holidays, but the mortgage and direct debits came out of my pension. Now with the LPA I don't know if I'm allowed to pay for our hols and essential decorating out of his account (which is in joint names).
He gets AA and his one day a week at a day centre comes out of that, plus memory clock and other aids. I manage all the rest of his care myself with occasional help from family.
I'm worried that if I pay for the wrong things from "his" account , though it's joint, that I'll be forced to pay the amounts back at some stage in the future.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,075
0
Bury
It would be better all round if your finances were separated and the joint account converted to 2 sole accounts.

The OPG would not object to half of any joint expenditure like holidays, house maintenance, insurance, mortgage,...being debited to his account, you could make individual transfers or set up direct debits to your account for ease of payments. They will also not object to any 'custom and practice' expenditure such as gifts to people or charities Having said that the OPG will leave you alone unless that get a factual complaint from somebody about your actions as attorney.

If the time comes for an LA assessment they may take a different view and regard things such as large gifts deprivation, they would have a hard job not allowing reasonable expenditure on house maintenance, they may also think expensive holidays constituted deprivation, your defence would be that such holidays were a regular, not necessarily annual, occurrence.

If you did have a one last big holiday the worst the LA could do would be to regard part or all of the expense as deprivation and include it as notional capital to be added to the actual capital.
 

Zsazsa

Registered User
Jul 20, 2014
46
0
Somerset
Thank you

It would be better all round if your finances were separated and the joint account converted to 2 sole accounts.

The OPG would not object to half of any joint expenditure like holidays, house maintenance, insurance, mortgage,...being debited to his account, you could make individual transfers or set up direct debits to your account for ease of payments. They will also not object to any 'custom and practice' expenditure such as gifts to people or charities Having said that the OPG will leave you alone unless that get a factual complaint from somebody about your actions as attorney.

If the time comes for an LA assessment they may take a different view and regard things such as large gifts deprivation, they would have a hard job not allowing reasonable expenditure on house maintenance, they may also think expensive holidays constituted deprivation, your defence would be that such holidays were a regular, not necessarily annual, occurrence.

If you did have a one last big holiday the worst the LA could do would be to regard part or all of the expense as deprivation and include it as notional capital to be added to the actual capital.
Thank you, Nitram for your speedy and informative reply. I will now make his pension account an individual one and tot up half of the direct debits etc for a monthly payment into the "house" account. When it comes to our holidays and the decorating bill I'll just take half from his account...Hope I've got that right. Zsazsa.
 

springchicken

Registered User
Nov 9, 2014
7
0
Hi Dibleyblue,

I can remember feeling exactly the same as you nearly three years ago when MIL was first diagnosed.
We had a support worker who recommended that we had LPA's done for MIL and we wondered if it was really necessary. We didn't do it immediately but about six months after her diagnosis. The forms look much worse than they are and there is a huge amount of guidance supplied with them so I managed them without difficulty, but as others have said Age Concern offer help and I'm sure members on TP will give you advice.
My main point however is that thank goodness we did have the LPA's, because MIL had a bad fall in September and ended up in hospital, after thinking that she would not make it for Christmas she has rallied round and we are in the process of getting her into a residential home. The health and Welfare POA was registered at the hospital and although I have not yet needed to use the Financial one I will certainly need it in the coming months to enable me to sort out her finances.
So I really would go ahead with them while Mum still understands what they are for, when we did them for MIL we explained them as simply as we could for her but she fully understood. Good luck and they are not as bad as they look.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,075
0
Bury
"...Hope I've got that right. Zsazsa..."

Correct, no fancy accounting needed, just traceability if ever required.
You may have a problem making the joint account sole in his name as it will require both your signatures and you may need a trustee to sign on his behalf. Maybe leave the account joint and put half (or your share )in your account.
Do the bank know about the LPA?
 

Zsazsa

Registered User
Jul 20, 2014
46
0
Somerset
"...Hope I've got that right. Zsazsa..."

Correct, no fancy accounting needed, just traceability if ever required.
You may have a problem making the joint account sole in his name as it will require both your signatures and you may need a trustee to sign on his behalf. Maybe leave the account joint and put half (or your share )in your account.
Do the bank know about the LPA?

Not yet. I will have to take the registered LPA in to them I think...another job before Christmas! I think I prefer your second suggestion about the. account. There's already an amount transferred from that to the House account, organised years ago before AD, so I could just adjust that from time to time to reflect any changes in outgoings. Thanks again,
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,075
0
Bury
Careful, some banks lock/close joint accounts is they suspect one signatory lacks capacity.
If your husband can sign it may be better to get him to sign to convert the account and then go to the bank when the deed is done to take control as attorney.

You could either get the mandate from the bank or if available download it and get your husband to sign it at home. If you post the name of the bank I'll see if i can find an online mandate.

What happens seems to vary between banks/branches/person seen.

In England and Wales, if one party to the joint account
loses capacity to operate their account, banks and
building societies will use their discretion to determine
whether or not to temporarily restrict the operation of
the account to essential transactions only (for example,
living expenses and medical/residential care bills for
both parties) until a deputy has been appointed or a
power of attorney registered.
In Scotland, you can continue to run the account as
long as the original account mandate was either-tosign
and there is not a court order preventing the
account from being used.


Page 7 >>>BBA DOCUMENT<<<
 

Zsazsa

Registered User
Jul 20, 2014
46
0
Somerset
Careful, some banks lock/close joint accounts is they suspect one signatory lacks capacity.
If your husband can sign it may be better to get him to sign to convert the account and then go to the bank when the deed is done to take control as attorney.

You could either get the mandate from the bank or if available download it and get your husband to sign it at home. If you post the name of the bank I'll see if i can find an online mandate.

What happens seems to vary between banks/branches/person seen.

In England and Wales, if one party to the joint account
loses capacity to operate their account, banks and
building societies will use their discretion to determine
whether or not to temporarily restrict the operation of
the account to essential transactions only (for example,
living expenses and medical/residential care bills for
both parties) until a deputy has been appointed or a
power of attorney registered.
In Scotland, you can continue to run the account as
long as the original account mandate was either-tosign
and there is not a court order preventing the
account from being used.


Page 7 >>>BBA DOCUMENT<<<

Thanks, Nitram, it's Natwest.
 

snowygirl

Registered User
Jan 9, 2014
151
0
Hi

I just had to answer your post and say YES! and LPA costs £110 and not hundreds and can be done at home on your own computer. I have recently done both for my mum and dad and have also put them in place with the banks. I cant say that bit went really smoothly but without LPA the banks wouldn't entertain me having access to mum and dad's accounts. Every official body we have contacted have asked the same thing 'have you got LPA?' and most have asked for a copy and even signed copies from a solicitor(£5 a pop if only the top page signed). Be careful on the 'mental capacity' bit though when signing forms at the Bank. Be sure if this is what you want as we were advised wrongly and mum and dads accounts were closed completely for them and they had no access at all to their money. This was resolved however but gave me a lot of extra aggro I could have done without...good luck!
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,075
0
Bury
"...Thanks, Nitram, it's Natwest..."

I can't find any online source but in the T&Cs I found that they will need a signed agreement as to the division of the funds when a joint account is converted to a sole account. This did not happen with my wife at the Halifax, all the money simply became mine.

Looking around it seems that as usual with banks there is no standard approach, some appear to close the account and open two new ones, maybe this is what Natwest do to enable them to divide the balance.

You could go into a branch and ask about how to go about it as you are thinking about splitting into two accounts and see what they say. I think banks don't like doing it because it quite often involves a divorce.

Perhaps it would be better to just make an appointment about the LPA and then say that obviously there should be a sole account for your husband, if your account is also with Natwest it should make things easier.
 

Zsazsa

Registered User
Jul 20, 2014
46
0
Somerset
"...Thanks, Nitram, it's Natwest..."

I can't find any online source but in the T&Cs I found that they will need a signed agreement as to the division of the funds when a joint account is converted to a sole account. This did not happen with my wife at the Halifax, all the money simply became mine.

Looking around it seems that as usual with banks there is no standard approach, some appear to close the account and open two new ones, maybe this is what Natwest do to enable them to divide the balance.

You could go into a branch and ask about how to go about it as you are thinking about splitting into two accounts and see what they say. I think banks don't like doing it because it quite often involves a divorce.

Perhaps it would be better to just make an appointment about the LPA and then say that obviously there should be a sole account for your husband, if your account is also with Natwest it should make things easier.

Thank you for taking the trouble to look all this up, Nitram. I don't think there'll be a problem about taking my name off the joint account as I don't need a division of funds since there's not a great deal beyond the pension each month. My own bank accounts are not with Natwest.