EPA - Questions

[Helena]

Polly since both Doctors and Solicitior are already well aware she has Dementia and given the state of things I am afraid you really do need to take courage in both hands and take over inc registering the EPA

Oh yes there will be one almighty row but she cannot claim she is in her right mind so the will etc cant be overturned and once done i think you will find things will go quiet

 

[Margarita]

No idea why we must register now. I think simply because we have submitted the attendance allowance form. We had not intended to take this route until things got really bad. I would rather MIL did not get attendance allowance than have her finances taken out of her control now.

AA have my EPA and have never ask me or told me to register EPA , don't let it stress you worrying that they force you to to take it out of her control , she still has rights under the mental health act even if she has Dementia , even if Doctors and Solicitior knows your MIL has Dementia . when your ready only then do it . phone AA up to reassure yourself , don't let that put you of claiming AA

 

[Lucille]

Hello Polly

I've just read through all the posts and, like Helena said, we could be talking about the same woman!

I have a registered EPA for my mum; who has Vascular Dementia. When I told her I was going to register it, she said she would kill herself. I was an awful daughter, had betrayed her and thank god I didn't live near her because after I'd gone, she NEVER wanted to see me again. Obviously, the dementia talking, but at the time it hurt. Five minutes after the conversation she had forgotten and wanted to know what we were having for tea. She has never mentioned it since.

For me, the registration of the EPA was straightforward. I didn't go through a solicitor, merely downloaded the paperwork off the CoP website. Applied for a refund of fees because mum doesn't own her own home/have much in savings and sent it off. It was registered about 35 days later.

I will say, though, that despite making an appointment with the bank and seeing a 'customer adviser' about the reg'd EPA, it was clear that I knew more than him.

The others are right in that claiming AA has nothing to do with EPA (registered or otherwise). Claim it! Your mother is entitled to it. I was made mum's 'appointee' as soon as I realised things weren't right with her. The DWP and Disability people have been efficient, professional and understanding in their dealings with me.

I might add that whilst I had an unregistered EPA for mum I was able to speak to the bank about her accounts, have them 'attached' to mine so that I could see on-line the comings and goings. Imperative when she was maxing her spending on totally irrelevant items; in her case not garlic bread, but corned beef and at the moment it's bags of porridge. And I then had to ensure there was money in her account for her rent. As you mentioned about your mum, there isn't the 'grasp' of financial affairs anymore - despite appearances. Mum would hark on about her bank manager phoning her if she was near her limit. Oh, for those halcyon days, when the bank manager did that!

Your posts portray that you are in turmoil about the decision. It's one that a lot of us here on TP have had to make ... I for one agonised over doing it, so I know where you're coming from. Courage mon brave! Post back and let us know how it goes.

 

[Margaret W]

epa

Hi,

No need to register your EPA except the regulations say you should do so when you feel the person is becoming incapable of managing their own affairs. This definitition is vague, and everyone I talked to when my mum was approaching this stage (including solicitors) said "Aw, no need to bother with that".

Jennifer, the term with the Pensions people is an "Appointee", you will need to send a certified copy of the EPA (signed by a solicitor), and they will then deal with you. The bank (Halifax), didn't even need a certified copy to register me as POA on all mum's accounts BUT they did also say that they would never refuse a customer access to their own funds (didn't follow that up), so if mum wanted to continue writing cheques in her own name, she could do so. Find that a bit worrying for some cases, but it suits us. Perhaps now we have registered the POA they would not let mum have access to her accounts. Not sure.

Strangely, the body with the greatest desire for evidence was British Gas who refused to send my mum's gas bill to my address without a copy of the POA! I said to them "Do you want it paying, or not?" but they wouldn't budge.

I did marvel at the evidence they all needed to enable me to pay the bills, and the lack of evidence they needed to cut all the services off when the house was sold. I could have been a vicious rellie wanting to make mum's life as awful as possible by having all her services cut off, and it would have been easy to do so!

Attendance allowance is not dependent on anything other than the proof that your mum need attending to. She doesn't have to be actually attended to by anbody, just needs it. If you are claiming this (Higher rate £64.50 a week, most AD sufferers should get this), make sure your claim emphasises the date when she first needed such help - that might be a year ago. Get out letters to doctors, records of appointments - it's amazing when you refresh your memory as to how long ago you first sought help. Backdate your claim to then, as the rule is your mum needs to have needed this care for 6 months before she can claim. They accepted Jan 3rd for my mum, though I didn't submit the claim until July. So we got payment from 3rd July.

AA is tax-free, that might help you in your planning.

Also consider claiming Carers Allowance is someone is caring for your mum x hours a week (forgotten the limits).

Don't forget that Council Tax is totally cancelled if a person is diagnosed with dementia or AD.

The problem with this website or with me, is that I can't get back to your post to see what else you asked, so I am guessing now.

We had to register the POA to sell her house, and also....forgotten...oh yes, I found some old life insurance policies in her papers, and those companies would only accept a certified copy of the Registered POA to communicate with me. I think the sum total of all five policies is like to amount to about £300, but rules are rules!

But don't forget to think about possible Life Assurance Policies, cos if they are substantial, you might feel you want to "loan" your parent some money when needed on the grounds that when they die you will inherit the proceeds of the policy - but don't forget you will have to pay for the funeral.

Hope all this helps.

Much love

Margaret

 

[Margaret W]

Ha, Ha, Helena, 1 month to register the POA? 3 months in our case - they lost it!

Ah well, it all helps to make life smoother.

Margaret

 

[Margaret W]

Lucille is spot on, most organisations are very sympathetic to the situation and do their best to help.

With my mum it was Ginger Biscuits. When we emptied her house, we found 23 packets!

Love to all

Margaret

 

[jenniferpa]

That right Margaret - Appointee: thank you. And actually you don't need an EPA to become an appointee, just a willingness to act (I held my mother's (unregistered) EPA as I said but the pension service wanted a person who was in the country).

 

[harvey]

wow!

thanks for all the help, support and advice Just dipping into TP before I go to work. I am amazed at the info that is offered when we post our concerns/problems.

MIL has an appointment with her doctor on Friday and I have written a letter with all I will not be able to say in the surgery (something I learned from TP) I find this patient confidentiality frustrating. When we are caring for someone with dementia I think the barrier should be lifted, we are not registered at the same surgery so they do not know us personally.

Waiting to hear from solicitor but am going to send copy of EPA to WPA anyway with covering letter. Will see what happens before I do anything else.

We would not qualify for carers allowance as we both work full time. I had to bring work home last weekend to make up the time I will have to take off for MIL doctors appointment. Spent Saturday with MIL shopping etc so that was my weekend taken care of

Polly

 

[Helena]

Not one of the Utility companies asked for the EPA when i dealt with my Mothers bills and direct debiting them from her account

However as already said .........Insurance Companies and Share Registrars will ONLY accept a registered EPA .........do be sure to get CERTIFIED COPIES of the EPA usually the bank will do this

The registered EPA you need Solicitor certified copies at £5 a time
Often companies will take 3 weeks to return an EPA to you so you need copies or you will be waiting forever to get everything organised

However National Savings are highly efficient and scan the EPA and send it right back although you will then wait weeks for them to deal with things

NEVER SEND OFF THE ORIGINAL only ever send copies

Once you have registered the EPA by law the banks cannot allow the patient to have cheque books or sign anything it all gets handed over to the Attorney

The sooner you put a stop on all her accounts that she is trolling around in her handbag the better because a mugger or burglar or con artist can make off with them and create havoc
Do not allow her to have large amoiunts of cash either on her or in the house for same reason

I had trusted plumbers /electricians etc phoning me at how vulnerable my Mother was and I know hundreds of £ went missing along with an Antique Train Set thanks to a dodgy workman

 

[sue38]

However as already said .........Insurance Companies and Share Registrars will ONLY accept a registered EPA .

This shouldn't be the case. The fact that an attorney is acting under an EPA doesn't mean that the donor has lost mental capacity. My sister has signed an EPA and my other sister and I use it regularly to manage her affairs, including dealing with her tax and dealing with Company Registrars.

The reason we deal with her affairs under an EPA is not because she is mentally incapable, but because she lives in Athens.

 

[Helena]

I think you will find that it depends exactly what you need to do with Insurance Companies and Share Registrars as to whether they need a registered EPA

That was certainly my experience

 

[Margaret W]

I am not aware of any law that says the mentally ill person cannot deal with their own finances if they so wish, can someone enlighten me on that? I am only aware that the Attorney can deal with their affairs as well, but not necessarily instead of.

At least that is what the Halifax told me.

In our case it doesn't matter cos mum has no cheque book (never knew what to do with one anyway, even 10 years ago), similarly no cash card (wouldn't have known what to do with it), but I can't see any legislation that would stop her from legging it down to the bank and drawing out all her money, if it took her fancy to do so.

Regards

Margaret

 

[harvey]

MH went into MIL bank to ask if we could go online to simply monitor her bank account. She quite often asks us when she last withdrew cash and we would like to be able to check direct debits etc. She has this thing where she feels she must draw out cash on the same day each month. She must squirrel it away in the house somewhere as she certainly does not spend a fraction of it. He was told that as EPA we can set up online banking. They do not have a system in place to allow us to monitor the account but we can have full access. This has to have MIL approval so think it is a not starter even if we wanted to. We only found out about her wanting to draw cash out on the same day each month yesterday. She got MH to check on the dates she had withdrawn cash previously, MH always takes her to the bank but had not made the connection about the date. He got into a row as he cannot always be available to take her to the bank when she wants to go. I find this a bit odd when she very rarely knows what day it is. Yesterday she did not feel like going so told MH he could go and get the dosh! After he got over the shock that she would allow him to do so, he told her that he could not do that. Told her he would write the cheque out as he usually does but she had to sign it in front of the lady in the bank. She did go with him in the end.

She is quite happy for us to see her bank statements but I think that is so that we can explain them to her. She obsesses about the term 'at a glance' on the statement as we seem unable to get across to her what it means. We have explained it so many times but she is unable to take it in.

She seems to have got to a certain stage of this illness and for some weeks we have not had any accusations. Although life is difficult it is not unbearable as it was earlier in the year. We hope that she stays in this phase for some time! When I first came to TP I was frantic, reading other posts is a real tonic and confirms that we are not on our own.

I have sent in the application for attendance allowance along with certified copy of EPA, will wait and see what happens.

Polly

 

[Margarita]

I am not aware of any law that says the mentally ill person cannot deal with their own finances if they so wish, can someone enlighten me on that? I am only aware that the Attorney can deal with their affairs as well, but not necessarily instead of.

I am not aware of any law that says the mentally ill person cannot deal with their own finances if they so wish,

That true in a way , they have to give you permission even if its just to an Appointee over they benefits , or give you permission for EPA


but then it can get very confusing , as in my case and when you say mentally ill [ I know your typing about person with dementia ]

as in mentally ill with dementia and mentally ill schizophrenia .

with a mental ill person as in schizophrenia, if CPN feel it detrimental to they mentally heath not to let them keep they money , because they are abusing themselves with drugs , alcohol so
neglecting them self not eating , washing became a threat to themselves and those around them they will appoint an Appointee to manage they money .

If not they can do what they like with they money , ask for your help or not you can't force them .

then with dementia its left to the carer to claim them mental in capable to manage they money that where registering EPA come in , if you manage to get an EPA

If not make sure you became they Appointee

 

[Helena]

Polly

I am sorry but having been through all of this I believe you are deluding yourself as to just how severe your MIL state is and the danger she is in especially with cash squirreled away

Its clear she no longer understands figures ............her obsession with cash is like a child and a piggy bank ............have to see it and count it to know its real

My Mother deluded my sister for months and because i was away nothing got sorted
When I did discover the 4 month pile of correspondance , threats of court etc but with my Mother still adamant she knew exactly what she was doing the game was up

Once I took over and actioned the EPA and all statements etc were sent to me and bills were paid by direct debit there was no post for her to fiddle with

Things then settled down but it was also the start of a rapid decline
It was only when i got finances etc under control that i was able to trace back to exactly when her 1st mini stroke was and the some 8 years that she had been hiding the truth

Oh how mucg easier everything would have been if the doctors had not been so stupid and she had admitted her true symptoms instead of her immense stubborness

 

[roman]

EPA/ Flu Jab

I recently completed an EPA for myself in case I need it for the future but had up to 30th October to complete it as they have now been replaced by Lasting Power of Attorney.This means that not only can you apply to havean LPA for financial control but also have a say in your relatives welfare.Costs are higher however.I was recently told the district nurse would not administer a flu jab to my mother as we did not have power of attorney.Mum has recently moved to a care home in another county but has always had the flu jab.The new mental health incapacity act 2005 has just come into force and this is reason given by the district nurses for not giving the jab.Having read the act I can only agree with her doctor who said the nurses decision was 'rubbish' as it says anyone who does not have power of attorney can be protected from liability if they can be seen to act in the 'best interests' of their relative provided certain factors are taken into account such as the previous wishes of the relative before they became incapable. Read the act as I suspect this may be just the start of professionals wrongly interpreting the act.I rang the district nurse but am still awaiting a response.

 

[Margaret W]

Just remembered, the DWP wanted to see the ORIGINAL REGISTERED EPA to grant Attendance Allowance, my hubby had to take it to one of their offices for them to copy, they would not accept one of our copies.

Margaret

 

[Margaret W]

Perhaps I am stupid, but I assumed the Care Home would arrange for all residents to have the Flu jab unless unsuitable for it. I'm sure they don't want an epidemic. However, my mother hasn't had one yet (and has had one for several years), so are you saying she can't have one cos she is incapable of agreeing to it herself and I don't have the power to insist?

Margaret

 

[gill@anchorage5]

Written Consent

Hi Margaret

Dad is currently in respite care for a couple of weeks - and the Nursing Home (full marks to them) liased with his own GP surgery to provide the flu vaccine, which I then picked up from the surgery and took into the NH for them to administer. I guess if Dad had been there on a permanent basis - he would be registered with their local GP - so would have been no need for me to collect the vaccine.

What surprised me though was that I still had to write a letter of consent for Dad to be given the vaccine at the NH, after I had given them the vaccine.

The NH advised me that it is planned for all residents (both permanent & temporary) to be given their flu vaccinations on the same day.

It may be that you will also need to give written consent for your Mum to be given the jab - so worth asking if they are awaiting this instruction from you.

Have lost track of recent threads a bit as I have not had internet access while staying at Mum & Dad's - but hope things are working out OK with you, since we last communicated.

Love

Gill x

 

[gill@anchorage5]

Wrong addressee

OOOps sorry "lost the thread a bit" here here, flu jab details should have been addressed to Roman - who raised the flu jab query!

Apologies.......!


Gill x