Protecting assets.

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northumbrian_k

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Mar 2, 2017
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I have never given much thought to comparing what my wife pays for her residential care to what the other residents pay. It is none of my business anyway. It is a bit like when one gets a bargain deal from a travel company. At the resort one will always find someone who says they got a better deal ...

I don't agree with the current system but have had to work with it to get my wife the care that she needs. Perhaps for the 18 months that she was self-funding she may have been subsidising other residents. I just thought of it as paying the going rate. Now her funds are below the threshold her contribution has reduced massively. The council has picked up the remainder of the tab, at whatever rate it has negotiated commensurate with its available budget.

Funding for social care - like so many other things - is deeply flawed but I'm afraid that it isn't going to change any time soon.
 

nita

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Dec 30, 2011
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@Jaded'n'faded i feel i need to apologize at this point as we were on low pay so couldnt really do the saving. never own our house but rent and he was laid off a few times in the 80s as lorry firms went under. my dad is still living as far as im aware. i wont inherit and dont want it. my 4 kids are all housed with their own families. they wont inherit off of us. my point is that it wasnt my fault i couldnt save and have mortgage etc but reading your post i feel guilty that this never happened. there are as many different circumstances as people. the most we are trying to do is pay for a funeral. maybe be aware of other people. the system is not fair but nothing about dementia is fair and i cant change that
I can empathise with you, @jennifer1967 as my mother could not save - she did cleaning jobs part-time while my brother was ill from his teens onwards. My father had left us though he did contribute a bit. My mother eventually got better paid jobs but never enough to save and we had more illness in the family. My Mum had to find all the household bills out of her own low pay.

Some people have misfortunes/illness/unemployment etc. in their lives and don't earn enough to save which was the case for my Mum.. Ironically, the only time she became better off she wasn't able to benefit from it - it was when she became ill in her 80s and received Attendance Allowance. When she died, she actually had a small amount of savings to leave us.

People no longer understand that that is what the state system is for - it's a safety net for people who fall into poverty. I think all the problems with people paying for their care has come about in recent years with the greater longevity and thus more people getting dementia. Also, at one time care homes were in public hands, now large investment companies are making profits from "care."
 

jennifer1967

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Mar 15, 2020
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I can empathise with you, @jennifer1967 as my mother could not save - she did cleaning jobs part-time while my brother was ill from his teens onwards. My father had left us though he did contribute a bit. My mother eventually got better paid jobs but never enough to save and we had more illness in the family. My Mum had to find all the household bills out of her own low pay.

Some people have misfortunes/illness/unemployment etc. in their lives and don't earn enough to save which was the case for my Mum.. Ironically, the only time she became better off she wasn't able to benefit from it - it was when she became ill in her 80s and received Attendance Allowance. When she died, she actually had a small amount of savings to leave us.

People no longer understand that that is what the state system is for - it's a safety net for people who fall into poverty. I think all the problems with people paying for their care has come about in recent years with the greater longevity and thus more people getting dementia. Also, at one time care homes were in public hands, now large investment companies are making profits from "care."
thanks @nita thats exactly what i meant although you put it better
 

Jaded'n'faded

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Jan 23, 2019
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thanks @nita thats exactly what i meant although you put it better
I've always worked but always managed to stay poor!

I moved into my house in 1984 with my partner (later my husband, later my ex.) It was a brand new 2 bed semi on a shared ownership scheme. The full price was £20,000 (yes, really!) but we could only afford a mortgage on a quarter, so that's what we went for. The other 3/4 was/is rented from a housing association. The intention was to buy further shares and eventually the whole thing as our incomes increased. Only they never did! Back then, Mater and Pater had loads of money but rarely spoke to me and if they did it was with disapproval and criticism. They could have chosen to help me out financially back then, though it was their money so no reason why they should have. It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask for their help. (They could have chosen just to be nice to me occasionally but they never did that either.)

As things have turned out, I am finally buying my house with what's left of mum's money, post care home fees, that I inherited. She (and my late father) would be horrified to hear what the place is worth now and how much I'm having to pay to buy it. If we'd done it back then, I would have owned my house (and not paid rent every month for 37 years) and the inheritance would have been much the same! But hindsight is a wonderful thing. None of us know what the future holds and it's easy to look back and think, 'I wish I'd planned things better.' No one says, 'I'll just put this £150 grand to one side in case I get dementia.'

That's the point of this post really. I've never had to do any financial planning before as I've never had any 'spare' money! But once the house sale is sorted (it's been going on for months) I will have a proper asset for the first time. I'll be doing a will, LPA, etc. too, and it just seems prudent to protect my house if I can. If it has to be sold to pay for care, so be it. But if that can be avoided, that's what I'd like to do.

Of course, we now have a new health minister with plans for changes to social care. So it might turn out that all care is free by the time I need it... (Crikey - did anyone see that pig flying past the window?)
 

TNJJ

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May 7, 2019
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cornwall
I've always worked but always managed to stay poor!

I moved into my house in 1984 with my partner (later my husband, later my ex.) It was a brand new 2 bed semi on a shared ownership scheme. The full price was £20,000 (yes, really!) but we could only afford a mortgage on a quarter, so that's what we went for. The other 3/4 was/is rented from a housing association. The intention was to buy further shares and eventually the whole thing as our incomes increased. Only they never did! Back then, Mater and Pater had loads of money but rarely spoke to me and if they did it was with disapproval and criticism. They could have chosen to help me out financially back then, though it was their money so no reason why they should have. It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask for their help. (They could have chosen just to be nice to me occasionally but they never did that either.)

As things have turned out, I am finally buying my house with what's left of mum's money, post care home fees, that I inherited. She (and my late father) would be horrified to hear what the place is worth now and how much I'm having to pay to buy it. If we'd done it back then, I would have owned my house (and not paid rent every month for 37 years) and the inheritance would have been much the same! But hindsight is a wonderful thing. None of us know what the future holds and it's easy to look back and think, 'I wish I'd planned things better.' No one says, 'I'll just put this £150 grand to one side in case I get dementia.'

That's the point of this post really. I've never had to do any financial planning before as I've never had any 'spare' money! But once the house sale is sorted (it's been going on for months) I will have a proper asset for the first time. I'll be doing a will, LPA, etc. too, and it just seems prudent to protect my house if I can. If it has to be sold to pay for care, so be it. But if that can be avoided, that's what I'd like to do.

Of course, we now have a new health minister with plans for changes to social care. So it might turn out that all care is free by the time I need it... (Crikey - did anyone see that pig flying past the window?)
??. I did..
 

MartinWL

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Jun 12, 2020
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You could consider putting the house into a trust, with yourself and the two children as trustees. Trusts are complicated and expert legal advice would be essential. Potentially the house wouldn't be part of your assets to be sold to pay for care as it would belong to the trust not to you.
 

Female1952

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Apr 6, 2021
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If you read other threads it's not all about inheritance. It's spouses being physically and sexually abused by partners with dementia. Frail partners or children with other responsibilities dealing with incontinence and other issues with no help from GP or social services.
There's a lot thar needs to be sorted before inheritance is eveb considered.
I speak as POA for my aunt, who is paying £5.5k per month for her care. She's been in a care home for more than 4 years- the important thing is that we got her there and she's well cared for.
 

Lawson58

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Aug 1, 2014
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Victoria, Australia
If you read other threads it's not all about inheritance. It's spouses being physically and sexually abused by partners with dementia. Frail partners or children with other responsibilities dealing with incontinence and other issues with no help from GP or social services.
There's a lot thar needs to be sorted before inheritance is eveb considered.
I speak as POA for my aunt, who is paying £5.5k per month for her care. She's been in a care home for more than 4 years- the important thing is that we got her there and she's well cared for.
And that was the other thought I had whilst reading the posts. Having my own money means that I can not only remain independent for as long as I can but it also allows me to have a choice in wherever I end up, be it at home or in care. You can only have a choice if you can afford it and I think my children would be appalled if I left money to them instead of caring for myself properly.
 

Jaded'n'faded

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Jan 23, 2019
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And that was the other thought I had whilst reading the posts. Having my own money means that I can not only remain independent for as long as I can but it also allows me to have a choice in wherever I end up, be it at home or in care. You can only have a choice if you can afford it and I think my children would be appalled if I left money to them instead of caring for myself properly.
Yes, money certainly buys you some choice. But is it fair that some people get choices over their care whilst others (e.g. those funded by SS) have no choice at all and have to accept whatever SS gives them? No, it isn't.

Can we also spare a thought for those people with dementia who have no family/friends to speak for them and act on their behalf? I was wondering what happens in such a case - presumably a deputy is appointed to look after their finances. Would that person also do such things as applying for CHC on behalf of the PWD if they would be entitled to it? Would anyone care that the person's money was being used up still paying for care and that very little was left for the person's beloved cousin in Australia? I'd be really interested to see figures on this: how many people without family or friends to apply for them were actually awarded CHC? I bet there are none.
 

marionq

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Apr 24, 2013
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Scotland
@Jaded'n'faded the situation with those who have no close family is not straightforward. My SIL never married or had children and although one of nine siblings they were all dead by the time she had to go into care. She is profoundly deaf, cannot speak and is mostly illiterate. Nevertheless she worked as a seamstress from 16 to 64. By default I had to deal with her situation and affairs and it had not been easy. I tried to get the LA to apply as deputy or the care home to become her appointee but neither worked out for one reason or another. Eventually the LA accepted that as she now has cancer as well as mild dementia they would pay all her costs and reclaim them through their lawyer when she dies which may well be quite soon.

She is fortunate to be in a lovely care home and that once I had got things in some kind of order she has all she needs. Once all her expenses are paid there will be several thousand pounds each to the dozen nieces and nephews who would barely recognise her if they met her in the street.
 

canary

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Feb 25, 2014
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South coast
Yes, money certainly buys you some choice. But is it fair that some people get choices over their care whilst others (e.g. those funded by SS) have no choice at all and have to accept whatever SS gives them? No, it isn't.
Nothing in life is available to everyone. There are always a range of things at different prices - that is true from things like supermarket items to cars. It would be nice if everything were available to everyone, but life is not like that.

In that respect, care homes are no different - they all cost different amounts and the Local Authority is naturally going to go for the cheapest option.

There is a trade off between self-funding and LA funding. If you are self-funding you can choose where to move to (assuming that they will accept you and they have the room) and (to a certain extent) the timing, but you have to use up your savings. If you are LA funded, you do not have to pay, but you have very little, or no, choice.

Both camps can argue this is not fair, but without a huge (very expensive) overhaul by government - and I dont see any willingness for then to grasp this particular nettle - nothing is going to change.
 

Lawson58

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Aug 1, 2014
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Victoria, Australia
Yes, money certainly buys you some choice. But is it fair that some people get choices over their care whilst others (e.g. those funded by SS) have no choice at all and have to accept whatever SS gives them? No, it isn't.

Can we also spare a thought for those people with dementia who have no family/friends to speak for them and act on their behalf? I was wondering what happens in such a case - presumably a deputy is appointed to look after their finances. Would that person also do such things as applying for CHC on behalf of the PWD if they would be entitled to it? Would anyone care that the person's money was being used up still paying for care and that very little was left for the person's beloved cousin in Australia? I'd be really interested to see figures on this: how many people without family or friends to apply for them were actually awarded CHC? I bet there are none.
If I have the money to pay for my care, then that frees up funding for someone else, someone who might not the get the care they need because of their circumstances. If I can see out my life without being a burden on others, then that would make me happy.

We live in a world in which not much is fair. The gap between rich and poor grows wider every day. And is it fair that some people get dementia when others don't?
 

Jaded'n'faded

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Jan 23, 2019
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@Jaded'n'faded the situation with those who have no close family is not straightforward. My SIL never married or had children and although one of nine siblings they were all dead by the time she had to go into care. She is profoundly deaf, cannot speak and is mostly illiterate. Nevertheless she worked as a seamstress from 16 to 64. By default I had to deal with her situation and affairs and it had not been easy. I tried to get the LA to apply as deputy or the care home to become her appointee but neither worked out for one reason or another. Eventually the LA accepted that as she now has cancer as well as mild dementia they would pay all her costs and reclaim them through their lawyer when she dies which may well be quite soon.

She is fortunate to be in a lovely care home and that once I had got things in some kind of order she has all she needs. Once all her expenses are paid there will be several thousand pounds each to the dozen nieces and nephews who would barely recognise her if they met her in the street.
So is anyone officially her deputy? Although the LA are paying now, they intend to recoup the money when she dies - a rather odd sort of DPA. I see that you were involved in her finances to some extent - who does that now? Do you know the value of her assets and how much the LA will be charging her (on her death) for the cost of her care? i.e. are you sure about the amount that will remain? (Obviously no one knows how long she's got left and I'm glad she's in a nice home.)

You see, the problem I have with this is that your SiL may well be eligible for CHC at some point but will anyone apply for it on her behalf? Or is it more likely the LA will just continue to pay the CH for now, knowing they can claim a huge amount from her estate, and not bother putting her up for CHC? (Because no one is going to challenge it...?)
 

marionq

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Apr 24, 2013
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Scotland
There was no POA because she would not have understood. I had no legal standing and no access to her bank account which is why I asked them to take over. All of these bodies have worked with me because she cannot communicate which is unusual. I think they all felt out of their depth. I have had dozens of phone calls over the last year since she was taken in, asking my opinion and my agreement which was a surprise to me. To be fair to all of these bodies involved
I think they wanted to do their best by her but the situation with her condition plus the pandemic left everyone tearing their hair out. I know her financial position because the bank still sends her statements to my address once a month. Originally she shared an account with my husband but he died a few months before this all began and though I took her to the bank and changed the account into her name only they still sent out the statements. I don’t think she will last long enough to claim anything quite frankly. I’ll be interested in what the lawyer charges when this is all over.
 

Jaded'n'faded

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Jan 23, 2019
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If I have the money to pay for my care, then that frees up funding for someone else, someone who might not the get the care they need because of their circumstances. If I can see out my life without being a burden on others, then that would make me happy.

We live in a world in which not much is fair. The gap between rich and poor grows wider every day. And is it fair that some people get dementia when others don't?
So true.

All my life, whenever I threw my hands up and declared, 'It's not fair!' my mother would always reply, 'No one ever said life is fair. Get used to it.'

Mum paid for her care because she had ample funds and that's fair enough. But it's not fair she paid so much more for her room than the LA were paying for the residents they funded. Mum paid tax and NI all her life (and she always worked apart from 5 years when my brother and I were very young.) So she paid for her own care, paid towards the care of other through taxes then got shafted again paying the higher fees at the care home. Should she have been made to pay again? No.

But maybe I should take the blame as I chose the CH. Back then I didn't have a clue about funding or how it worked. When I did discover the truth, the manager was quite open with me about how much more my mother was paying because the LA don't pay enough so they charged private residents more to make up the shortfall. This only happens in homes that take both private and LA funded residents. I should have chosen a fully private home for her. But how was I to know about this injustice? This is probably the one piece of advice I'd pass on to anyone comtemplating a self-funded move into care for their loved one.
 

northumbrian_k

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Mar 2, 2017
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Homes that don't accept LA funded residents (or do so with caveats) may be at the higher end of charging so money may run away even more quickly. At the point that funds fall below the threshold for LA funding that would mean the resident having to move to somewhere that would accept the LA rate. It may be alright (and more equitable) to choose a 'private only' care home but only if one is willing to pay more and there is no possibility of falling below the threshold.

The more expensive homes that I looked at would allow residents once they became funded by the LA but only if a 3rd party would pay a top up.
 

Sirena

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Feb 27, 2018
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maybe my view is skew-whiff in another direction
I have no children and no intention of leaving anything to estranged family ... anything I leave will go to charities
I count myself blessed that mum and dad saved so dad was able to fund himself, and he left me a generous amount when he died
I will be happy to pay for my own care should I need it, and grateful that if my money runs out we live in a state which will fund our care

I am mindful that 'the state'/ the government/the LA/ Social Services (call it what you will) is not some money magician .... it is, in fact, all of those who pay taxes/contributions, so those who are working or have worked .... therefore anyone saying they will give their own assets away so the 'state' can pay for their care is expecting everyone else to pay for them .... which doesn't seem right/fair to me
I completely agree. My mother has self-funded her care for the past five years and by the time she dies the money will have run out, I won't inherit anything. But I much prefer that situation to the alternative of sorting out care via SS, which would have been inadequate and provided 'too late'. Self funding meant I did not have to struggle/fight for care, I could employ a care agency and then at the appropriate time choose a care home for her.

I couldn't really put a price on that. If/when I need care, I would much prefer to fund it myself than rely on SS.
 
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