Can an attorney (son) with LPA for both health and finances remove parent with dementia from a nursing home giving no notice? To care at home after a violation of father's privacy that the home has denied and trying to say father gave permission?
LPA removal from home
- Thread starter Sealettuce
- Start date
Hi @Sealettuce and welcome to Dementia Talking Point. I'm sorry that what sounds like a very distressing situation has bought you here.
I'm sure others who know more about this topic will be along shortly, but I would be very wary of taking a loved one from a nursing home and bringing them home. Some people on Dementia Talking Point have done this, and I don't think any of them managed to care for their loved one at home successfully. I also think, that even though you have LPA, if the medical staff involved with your father consider that his needs could not be met at home they would challenge any attempt to move him.
I think you might find it useful to discuss this with the support line - Dementia Connect support line: 0333 150 3456 and dementia.connect@alzheimers.org.uk. They are open till four today
I'm sure others who know more about this topic will be along shortly, but I would be very wary of taking a loved one from a nursing home and bringing them home. Some people on Dementia Talking Point have done this, and I don't think any of them managed to care for their loved one at home successfully. I also think, that even though you have LPA, if the medical staff involved with your father consider that his needs could not be met at home they would challenge any attempt to move him.
I think you might find it useful to discuss this with the support line - Dementia Connect support line: 0333 150 3456 and dementia.connect@alzheimers.org.uk. They are open till four today
hello @Sealettuce
a warm welcome to DTP
that's a tricky one ... if the father has capacity to make such decisions, then that's his choice ... though the Local Authority Adult Services may well want to be assured that this is in his best interests and that satisfactory support is in place to meet the father's care needs
if the father no longer has capacity, the Attorney has the responsibility to act only in the father's best interests, and again the LA might well want assurance, especially as you mention that it is a nursing home, which implies a high level of care and health needs
it would be unusual for such action to be taken ... LPAs don't mean that an Attorney's wishes, or even the person's wishes, override the best interests of the donor ie the father
I'm not sure what the incident may have been; talking things over with the care home manager may reassure the son and discussions may make clearer what is acceptable to the father .... if this is a safeguarding issue, it needs to be lodged as a formal complaint and the LA informed
maybe have a chat with an advisor on the support line, as they have a lot of knowledge
www.alzheimers.org.uk
a warm welcome to DTP
that's a tricky one ... if the father has capacity to make such decisions, then that's his choice ... though the Local Authority Adult Services may well want to be assured that this is in his best interests and that satisfactory support is in place to meet the father's care needs
if the father no longer has capacity, the Attorney has the responsibility to act only in the father's best interests, and again the LA might well want assurance, especially as you mention that it is a nursing home, which implies a high level of care and health needs
it would be unusual for such action to be taken ... LPAs don't mean that an Attorney's wishes, or even the person's wishes, override the best interests of the donor ie the father
I'm not sure what the incident may have been; talking things over with the care home manager may reassure the son and discussions may make clearer what is acceptable to the father .... if this is a safeguarding issue, it needs to be lodged as a formal complaint and the LA informed
maybe have a chat with an advisor on the support line, as they have a lot of knowledge
Dementia Support Line
If you need dementia support, we’re here for you. Get personalised information, support and advice by calling us on 0333 150 3456.
www.alzheimers.org.uk
I would be very interested in the answer to this question. I was told my husband needed 24 hour nursing home care, costing upwards of £1000 weekly. I had been caring for him but, as he liked to wander and was difficult if thwarted, he had to be cared for in a nursing home. He has now been in a nursing home for a few weeks and is miserable there. I have Power of Attorney Welfare and Finance, and when I suggested I would bring hime home, I was told that, while I had the power to do that, I might be facing a challenge in the court.
I don't know the answer but I'm wondering if money will come into the equation. If the father is self-funding, you can pretty much move him at will as you will be paying. If the council are funding his care at the home, then they will have to be involved in any move, I think. Would you be expecting the council to fund a new care package at home if he was moved back there? Often, the council will only fund a maximum of 4 care visits per day. If he needs more than that it would probaby be considered in his best interests to be in a care home as that works out cheaper for the council.
And is a move back home the only option? Might you consider moving him to a different care hme if you're not happy with the place he's in now?
And is a move back home the only option? Might you consider moving him to a different care hme if you're not happy with the place he's in now?
I agree @jetted
once it has been deemed necessary to move someone into residential nursing care to meet their needs, it is usually difficult to then return the person home and a 'best interest meeting' can be called with the possibility of referral to the Court of Protection which has the ultimate duty of care
I'm sorry your husband isn't settled ... it often takes more than a few weeks for someone to 'acclimatise' to new surroundings and routines ... and you do mention that he was 'difficult if thwarted' so please remember that there were good reasons for this move to residential care ... however much you may hope and wish to have your husband home, sadly it doesn't sound as though you were both coping
once it has been deemed necessary to move someone into residential nursing care to meet their needs, it is usually difficult to then return the person home and a 'best interest meeting' can be called with the possibility of referral to the Court of Protection which has the ultimate duty of care
I'm sorry your husband isn't settled ... it often takes more than a few weeks for someone to 'acclimatise' to new surroundings and routines ... and you do mention that he was 'difficult if thwarted' so please remember that there were good reasons for this move to residential care ... however much you may hope and wish to have your husband home, sadly it doesn't sound as though you were both coping
Hi @Sealettuce and welcome to Dementia Talking Point. I have nothing to add to the suggestions above but do want to pick up on your reference to giving no notice. The contract for services with the care home will stipulate a period of notice. Just like any other contract, this would need to be honoured. Immediate removal would not stop the care home from claiming the fees that would have been paid during the period of notice. If self-funding these would need to be paid in the usual way. If the council is meeting all or part of the costs it may wish to claim back from the former resident or their representive any fees paid that cover the period of notice.
@MaNaAk the DoLS only prevents the PWD leaving the home alone, at will. It doesn't prevent them leaving with a relative or carer.
I agree with the previous posters that the answer will partly depend on who is funding the care. You may have more control over the situation if the person with dementia (PWD) is self funding, but the care home may still involve Social Services if they believe removal is not in PWD's best interests. And the fees would still have to be paid for the notice period as specified in the contract.
I agree with the previous posters that the answer will partly depend on who is funding the care. You may have more control over the situation if the person with dementia (PWD) is self funding, but the care home may still involve Social Services if they believe removal is not in PWD's best interests. And the fees would still have to be paid for the notice period as specified in the contract.
Dols only applies in situ- he wouldnt be allowed to leave the home on his own if he was subject to DOLS, doesnt stop you taking the resident out though- I took my late mother out a lot.
DOLS is residence specific- ie someone wjho is subject to DOLS in a residentil establishment has to have a new one put in place if admitted to hospital for instance ( or so I believe) DOLS is residence specific.
Should someone move back 'home' the DOLS would cease to be.
Thank you for the replies, I'm reticent to give too much detail here, we had already prepared a full annexe for him, we have private care arrangements in place. It was only the covid situation that prevented us doing it sooner. When you catch a home lying more than once then any suggestion of discussion with them is out of the window. So the family have discussed that removal at the earliest opportunity is best interests, so if you're self funding and you turn up with the LPA documents you can remove? And what is DoLs?
It's good news you have arrangements in place for him to be cared for at home. You don't need to worry about the DoLS (Deprivation of Liberty Safeguard) it is the paperwork which allows the care home to prevent the person with dementia wandering off. It doesn't prevent you taking them out of the care home.
I doubt just turning up at the care home will give you the result you want. Due to Covid there is very limited access for visitors, I don't know what arrangements this care home has but at best you'd need a pre-booked visit after a negative Covid test. If you turn up unannounced they simply won't let you in, you would have to rely on them agreeing to bring your father outside and pack up all his stuff. That makes it extremely easy for them to refuse.
Is there any reason you cannot write giving notice and arrange a date to go and collect him? I know you want him home asap, but you need to think how best that will be achieved.
I doubt just turning up at the care home will give you the result you want. Due to Covid there is very limited access for visitors, I don't know what arrangements this care home has but at best you'd need a pre-booked visit after a negative Covid test. If you turn up unannounced they simply won't let you in, you would have to rely on them agreeing to bring your father outside and pack up all his stuff. That makes it extremely easy for them to refuse.
Is there any reason you cannot write giving notice and arrange a date to go and collect him? I know you want him home asap, but you need to think how best that will be achieved.
