Family members stealing from father

[vaana]

My uncle has been diagnosed with frontal lobe dementia. One of his daughters and his son (very caring and trustworthy people) have applied for Power of Attorney at the suggestion of uncles social worker. The problem is, my uncle has another daughter and a granddaughter who are constantly asking my uncle for money (daily), which he transfers into their bank accounts. About 6 months ago when we discovered this, we contacted the police, who 'had a word' with them, but advised they could do nothing as uncle (despite him being a vulnerable person) is choosing to give them money when they ask. We talked to uncle about this (as he has no money left at the end of every month) and he allowed us to delete their phone numbers from his mobile and delete their bank accounts from his mobile banking app. My cousin also has serious words with her sister and niece, but was met by abuse and they said they could do what they like. Sure enough, within days, all the deleted info had been restored. They don't even visit him.... just tap him for all the money they can get! It's just heartbreaking. My cousin saw January's bank statement at his flat yesterday and EVERY day he had sent them both money as they'd asked for it. In total this amounted to £564 and left him with no money for food. In fact, every month he has to ask his son for money as he has none left for groceries.
Please can anyone give advice regarding this horrible situation. Once the Power of Attorney arrives, is there anything that can be done to permit my cousins to take over full control of uncles financial affairs and bank account, without him being able to run his business affairs in addition to us? As it stands, my understanding is that uncle will be able to continue running his bank accounts etc as well as his attorneys, which would still leave him vulnerable and open to financial abuse.

 

[Jessbow]

I'd remove the mobile banking app!

If they get POA they wont be able to do anything until he loses capasity- I'd doubt someone thatcan use a banking app cant be deemed to have done so

 

[MaNaAk]

You would have to register the POA with each bank and in doing so let them know what's going on but other than this I'm not sure what they can do. Hopefully someone with more experience will come along.

MaNaAk

 

[vaana]

I'd remove the mobile banking app!

If they get POA they wont be able to do anything until he loses capasity- I'd doubt someone thatcan use a banking app cant be deemed to have done so

Exactly! It's so upsetting. I cant believe there is nothing to be done. He's having to leave his retirement home due to his strange behaviour and go into assisted care housing. And yet he is still deemed to have capacity

 

[MaNaAk]

If this other daughter is also an attorney and continues with this behaviour your cousin can report her to the OPG if necessary.

MaNaAk

 

[fromnz123]

We recently arranged POA for my husband, the solicitor basically said that whilst my husband is deemed to have capacity I can’t stop him spending/using his money as he wishes, even if I think the decisions he is making are not wise.

 

[MaNaAk]

Exactly! It's so upsetting. I cant believe there is nothing to be done. He's having to leave his retirement home due to his strange behaviour and go into assisted care housing. And yet he is still deemed to have capacity

Amazing!

MaNaAk

 

[Bunpoots]

Once the POA arrives perhaps you can speak to the bank about how to stop this blatant financial abuse. I would imagine they could put some kind of red flag on the accounts concerned. Perhaps it's time to stop online banking and start doing uncle's grocery shopping for him?

 

[lollyc]

Exactly! It's so upsetting. I cant believe there is nothing to be done. He's having to leave his retirement home due to his strange behaviour and go into assisted care housing. And yet he is still deemed to have capacity

I would agree with deleting the app for a start!

Would your uncle allow his attornies to manage his money? He doesn't need to have lost capacity , he can simply give consent to them doing so. (My mother never had an assessment for capacity - we simply took over her affairs because she didn't feel confident in dealing with them, could not longer write or reliably use a telephone.)
If not, perhaps when POA are granted, the banks can be asked to text the attornies when transactions take place, so that they are at least aware of what is happening, even if they don't have the power to stop it.

I think you have to question whether someone who gives away money to the point that he cannot afford to buy food, actually has capacity to make that decision.

 

[vaana]

If this other daughter is also an attorney and continues with this behaviour your cousin can report her to the OPG if necessary.

MaNaAk

 

[vaana]

The daughter who is stealing is not an attorney. So, nothing to stop her asking her dad for money transfers daily. We cancelled the bank app but he just caught a bus daily to the bank to make the transfers ?. He really has no concept that he is giving her money that is to be used for food.

 

[Jessbow]

Mysteriously disappear his bus pass?

 

[Starting on a journey]

Could you “bulk buy” food as soon as he receives his money…if necessary get your shopping out of it and then buy his when he needs more…just thinking that he wouldn’t be able to give the money if it wasn’t in the account. If you like you would be enabling him to manage his food money throughout the month?

 

[Helly68]

I think I saw a discussion elsewhere about the use of a card called Go Henry (others are available) like a bank card for vulnerable people, where you can set limits on what can be withdrawn and it will decline anything over the limit. Might not solve the problem, but may allow more control if you father is unable to manage his money.

 

[Shedrech]

hi @vaana
I wonder whether your uncle might give his other 2 children regular amounts too ... of course they will put the money in an account in their names (effectively an Attorney account) and use it to buy food etc for their father, keeping detailed accounts to show nothing was spent on themselves .... and returning the balance when they take over management of their father's finances

when the LPA comes back from the OPG, the Attorneys themselves must consider whether they honestly believe that their father no longer has capacity to deal with his finances ... if they sincerely think that he no longer has, they have the responsibility to take on the management ... personally I agree that giving away so much money that there is none left for food could be deemed a signal that capacity is lacking

possibly the bank may allow their father access to an account as well as the Attorneys, some banks do not considering that the Attorneys only are to manage the finances once the LPA is 'registered' with the bank ... it may be that a separate account could be used by the Attorneys to manage income and necessary outgoings, possibly with the existing account having a small amount transferred in each month so the father has something to give away if he chooses

I hope that all utility bills etc are currently being paid (by direct debit?) ... and am concerned that you mention the father's 'business affairs' ... if he is running a business that may be something for the Attorneys to be aware of but they will have no powers over business affairs (as I understand it ... worth checking) ... and if he is successfully running the business, it makes considerations of capacity/lack of it more challenging

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

Once you get LPA , open a new account for him and put 'spending money' in there. Sort out his cards, etc, so that he only has access to this account, that way you can make sure he keeps the majority of his money. (Or do it the other way round - let him continue with access to his account as now but open a separate account and transfer most of his income there for food, bills, etc.)

Presumably you have spoken to him about why he keeps giving these spongers money every day? What does he say? Actually, I'd get cross with him and tell him exactly what problems he's causing for himself. You say he still has some capacity so maybe he'd understand that. And LIE to him! Maybe say that now the LPA has come through, the bank say that you must deal with all his money and that he's not allowed to do it anymore. Say the bank got annoyed because he kept overdrawing his account. In fact, tell him anything he might believe, but you have to stop the spongers.

Might also be worth scaring them a bit - get a solicitor to send each of them a 'cease and desist' letter. They sound pretty horrible (and clearly know exactly what they are doing) but that might work. You could also contact the police again - mention elder abuse, vulnerable adult, etc.

I really hope you can stop these despicable people stealing your father's money.

 

[MaNaAk]

Mysteriously disappear his bus pass?

Brilliant idea @Jessbow!

MaNaAk

 

[heatherj]

Could this actually cause a bigger problem? If he ever gets to the stage of needing a financial assessment for the payment of care fees could that not be seen as giving money to other people to avoid paying care costs? I know it's a little bit at a time rather than a lump sum, but I believe (and I'm not expert) that if you are going to give money to relatives, there is a time scale during which that money would be taken into account in an assessment (but then maybe I'm talking rubbish)

 

[vaana]

Could you “bulk buy” food as soon as he receives his money…if necessary get your shopping out of it and then buy his when he needs more…just thinking that he wouldn’t be able to give the money if it wasn’t in the account. If you like you would be enabling him to manage his food money throughout the month?

That's a great idea!

 

[vaana]

Could you “bulk buy” food as soon as he receives his money…if necessary get your shopping out of it and then buy his when he needs more…just thinking that he wouldn’t be able to give the money if it wasn’t in the account. If you like you would be enabling him to manage his food money throughout the month?

That's a great idea!

Brilliant idea @Jessbow!

MaNaAk

Im afraid that would really stress him out