Another question that I cannot get my head around...

[maryjoan]

OK - can I put this past you....

I am his partner, we live together - does that mean I have a duty of care towards him, putting apart any emotions??

I ask because he lost his driving license over 3 years ago because of the dementia - he is now 74 yrs old.

He won some money and bought a pedal bike. He would not have it that he might not be that safe on the roads....

I insisted that he wore hi viz and a helmet, had his phone with him at all times, and carried a card saying who he was where he lived etc and my phone number.

I worked out a circular route round our village, that was relatively free of traffic.

He has now got bored with that, and keeps venturing further and further afield. He was out two and a half hours today - I had a rough idea where he might be, but this is no comfort because we no longer have a car - so I cannot go and look for him.

I mentioned his bike ride this evening, and tried to ascertain which way he went - but he was unable to tell me and got rather cross. He just knew which village he had ended up in. Even the carer had expressed concern that he was going on busy but narrow roads, as they are in this area.

Should he be out on his bike like this? I cannot stop him. He could well have an accident in which he might hurt someone else.

Is it neglectful of me not to try and stop him going out on his own for 2-3 hours like this - when I don't know where he is?

I just don't know any more.

There was a conversation initiated by the care agency a few weeks ago, when the social worker mentioned safety concerns - I think I need to speak to the social worker again.....

But my main question to you all, is how do we, the carers, work out what our responsibilities are - will I get blamed if there is an accident, because I have been reckless with his safety??

What do you think?

 

[TNJJ]

OK - can I put this past you....

I am his partner, we live together - does that mean I have a duty of care towards him, putting apart any emotions??

I ask because he lost his driving license over 3 years ago because of the dementia - he is now 74 yrs old.

He won some money and bought a pedal bike. He would not have it that he might not be that safe on the roads....

I insisted that he wore hi viz and a helmet, had his phone with him at all times, and carried a card saying who he was where he lived etc and my phone number.

I worked out a circular route round our village, that was relatively free of traffic.

He has now got bored with that, and keeps venturing further and further afield. He was out two and a half hours today - I had a rough idea where he might be, but this is no comfort because we no longer have a car - so I cannot go and look for him.

I mentioned his bike ride this evening, and tried to ascertain which way he went - but he was unable to tell me and got rather cross. He just knew which village he had ended up in. Even the carer had expressed concern that he was going on busy but narrow roads, as they are in this area.

Should he be out on his bike like this? I cannot stop him. He could well have an accident in which he might hurt someone else.

Is it neglectful of me not to try and stop him going out on his own for 2-3 hours like this - when I don't know where he is?

I just don't know any more.

There was a conversation initiated by the care agency a few weeks ago, when the social worker mentioned safety concerns - I think I need to speak to the social worker again.....

But my main question to you all, is how do we, the carers, work out what our responsibilities are - will I get blamed if there is an accident, because I have been reckless with his safety??

What do you think?

Hi.I don't see how you could be blamed.Professionals seem to be very quick on saying that people who have capacity(even fluctuating) can make bad decisions. They cannot have it both ways.It is very difficult to work out our responsibilities. They have Duty of Care so they need to put it into practice of they are worried.There must be steps that can be taken. The only thing I can see that you would be able to do would be get rid of the bike..If you did .Would be be able to get another?

 

[karaokePete]

My understanding is that it's only the Local Authority/Social Services who have the duty of care to which you refer @maryjoan.

Indeed, when my wife ran into a safeguarding issue last year it was my reminding the Social Worker that it was they, rather than me, who had the duty of care that got my wife the attention and day care that was needed for both our sakes.

If you were doing something 'to' your partner then you would have the same duty of care that any ordinary person would have in the same circumstances.

I have to say that this is just my opinion as a lay person but I was successful in using this personal opinion when it was needed

 

[canary]

No you do not have duty of care - Social Services does.

There are a couple of things you might want to do, though.
You could speak to the Police about registering him with the Herbert protocol, so that if he goes missing they can speed up finding him. The other thing is - if he got a puncture, could he repair it?

Id also speak to the SW again.

 

[fromnz123]

This is interesting as my OH was advised by his Lung Function Consultant that he’s not to drive, and that as he’s been advised not to drive that he’s insurance is invalid so illegal for him to do so.

He disputes this even thou we now have it in writing. On a couple of occasions he has gone to the car and started the engine, I threatened him with me calling 999 . He did eventually come back in.

I also take both sets of car keys with me if I go out without the car. A couple of times I’ve realised once I’m out that I haven’t taken the car keys with me so I’ve rushed back home in a panic ?‍♀️

 

[MartinWL]

If you tell the insurance company they may cancel his insurance. That might work. It takes time but you can also share the diagnosis/advice with DVLA Swansea and this can result in his licence being revoked. You can report anonymously and of course deny it. You might try and get his GP to do the dirty work.

 

[Izzy]

@canary mentioned the Herbert Protocol. Most police authorities have the form online. This is one sample -

Dementia and the Herbert Protocol - North Yorkshire Police

When a person goes missing, it is very distressing for family and friends and can be even more worrying when the missing person has Dementia.

northyorkshire.police.uk

 

[jennifer1967]

my husband goes out on the bus on his own and he has the same phone id card with hes confused his name and my number to contact called a helping hands card that he keeps in his wallet and another that he keeps with his bus pass. he enjoys the freedom and ive minimised the risks of him getting into danger. if hes out for too long about an hour i phone him to check hes all right and where he is. sometimes out too long and sleeps in the afternoon but i cant take away his last bit of freedom. we havent got a car although he still got a licence. he brought a pushbike but sold it as he didnt feel safe riding it. i think sometimes its like with toddlers where you have your hands over your eyes but looking out of your fingers. its trying to work out which risks you take and which ones you dont. he would be miserable if i kept him in

 

[jennifer1967]

@canary mentioned the Herbert Protocol. Most police authorities have the form online. This is one sample -

Dementia and the Herbert Protocol - North Yorkshire Police

When a person goes missing, it is very distressing for family and friends and can be even more worrying when the missing person has Dementia.

northyorkshire.police.uk

thanks for that didnt know it existed and is followed by all forces around the country

 

[Vic10]

I absolutely understand your concern over this and I really can’t help but (sorry not very well up on technology) but do you have a tracker on his phone so at least you would be able to track his location?

 

[maryjoan]

I absolutely understand your concern over this and I really can’t help but (sorry not very well up on technology) but do you have a tracker on his phone so at least you would be able to track his location?

He only has an ancient nokia that isn't a smart phone - I have just asked him what he would do if he had a puncture on one of his far flung rides ( probably about 8 miles from home ) he said he would walk back - I think provided he could find his way!
Very hard this mid stage dementia, when PWD has lost so much cognitive ability, yet doesn't think they have.........

 

[canary]

I have just asked him what he would do if he had a puncture on one of his far flung rides ( probably about 8 miles from home ) he said he would walk back

Maybe the bike could suddenly develop a puncture while it is parked at home......

 

[Jacques]

He only has an ancient nokia that isn't a smart phone - I have just asked him what he would do if he had a puncture on one of his far flung rides ( probably about 8 miles from home ) he said he would walk back - I think provided he could find his way!
Very hard this mid stage dementia, when PWD has lost so much cognitive ability, yet doesn't think they have.........

I would suggest that changing his phone to one with a tracker is an excellent idea as is the occasional puncture while the bike is at home. Maybe the hassle of having to keep mending punctures will put him of bike riding. Good luck and don't beat yourself up, you can only do your best like all of us.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

It's an interestng question @maryjoan. With driving, the powers that be step in and issue a ban but not so with cycling! I think as others have said, apart from informing the police, making sure he has ID, etc, there's not much you can do. He has enough capacity at the moment to make bad choices.

But you are not responsible for anything another adult does! If he gets into difficulties whilst out on the bike, it's not your fault. You have tried to stop him, advise him, etc but he has made his own decision. So if he falls off and hurts himself you are no more responsible than if he got into an altercation and hit someone.

You can't be responsible for someone who is elsewhere...

 

[annielou]

My mums SW recently asked MC to do a road safety assessment on mum, I wonder if you could request one from your MC to see if they deem your husband to be safe out and about on his own. Mums was for walking but maybe they could assess your hubby on his bike as well as general road safety and awareness. That way if they say he's not safe you can use that as a way to get rid of his bike and if they say he is then that may put your mind at rest a bit. An OT from the MC came out to see mum to chat to her and wanted to go out for a little walk with her to assess how mobile she was, how aware of danger and if she knew the way and direction she was taking.
I don't think you can be held responsible for what your husband does even though as carers we tend to think we are. ?

 

[imthedaughter]

Here's a off the wall suggestion - I sort of think it's great that he's still cycling, but agree it's not very safe. I don't think you're responsible but here's a different type of idea:

Would he countenance something like Zwift? You put you bike on a static trainer and ride along, and the screen shows you going on different routes - you can cycle in New York, London, and now Paris, you can cycle with other people in real time - we do it a lot especially when it was lockdown and it's really fun.

Punctures much less of an issue, balance not an issue, but you get all the fitness benefits of cycling and no cars either! You can even take photos. Sometimes it rains but you don't get wet. And the sun shines a lot but you never get burnt!

A 'smart trainer' is a little pricey, but worth it in my opinion, and you can use the bike you already have. The subscription is also a cost of about £12 a month I think, but it's replaced my gym membership for the time being at least and you can do a free trial and even have a free account although you can only go a few miles each month with that.

 

[maryjoan]

My mums SW recently asked MC to do a road safety assessment on mum, I wonder if you could request one from your MC to see if they deem your husband to be safe out and about on his own. Mums was for walking but maybe they could assess your hubby on his bike as well as general road safety and awareness. That way if they say he's not safe you can use that as a way to get rid of his bike and if they say he is then that may put your mind at rest a bit. An OT from the MC came out to see mum to chat to her and wanted to go out for a little walk with her to assess how mobile she was, how aware of danger and if she knew the way and direction she was taking.
I don't think you can be held responsible for what your husband does even though as carers we tend to think we are. ?

Thanks for this - what is an MC please? Sounds like a good course of action to take....

 

[maryjoan]

Here's a off the wall suggestion - I sort of think it's great that he's still cycling, but agree it's not very safe. I don't think you're responsible but here's a different type of idea:

Would he countenance something like Zwift? You put you bike on a static trainer and ride along, and the screen shows you going on different routes - you can cycle in New York, London, and now Paris, you can cycle with other people in real time - we do it a lot especially when it was lockdown and it's really fun.

Punctures much less of an issue, balance not an issue, but you get all the fitness benefits of cycling and no cars either! You can even take photos. Sometimes it rains but you don't get wet. And the sun shines a lot but you never get burnt!

A 'smart trainer' is a little pricey, but worth it in my opinion, and you can use the bike you already have. The subscription is also a cost of about £12 a month I think, but it's replaced my gym membership for the time being at least and you can do a free trial and even have a free account although you can only go a few miles each month with that.

This sounds like a good idea - especially with the autumn and winter yet to come! Thank you for suggesting it....

 

[Mydarlingdaughter]

OK - can I put this past you....

I am his partner, we live together - does that mean I have a duty of care towards him, putting apart any emotions??

I ask because he lost his driving license over 3 years ago because of the dementia - he is now 74 yrs old.

He won some money and bought a pedal bike. He would not have it that he might not be that safe on the roads....

I insisted that he wore hi viz and a helmet, had his phone with him at all times, and carried a card saying who he was where he lived etc and my phone number.

I worked out a circular route round our village, that was relatively free of traffic.

He has now got bored with that, and keeps venturing further and further afield. He was out two and a half hours today - I had a rough idea where he might be, but this is no comfort because we no longer have a car - so I cannot go and look for him.

I mentioned his bike ride this evening, and tried to ascertain which way he went - but he was unable to tell me and got rather cross. He just knew which village he had ended up in. Even the carer had expressed concern that he was going on busy but narrow roads, as they are in this area.

Should he be out on his bike like this? I cannot stop him. He could well have an accident in which he might hurt someone else.

Is it neglectful of me not to try and stop him going out on his own for 2-3 hours like this - when I don't know where he is?

I just don't know any more.

There was a conversation initiated by the care agency a few weeks ago, when the social worker mentioned safety concerns - I think I need to speak to the social worker again.....

But my main question to you all, is how do we, the carers, work out what our responsibilities are - will I get blamed if there is an accident, because I have been reckless with his safety??

What do you think?

No, legally you don't have a duty of care. I know this is true. Certain elements of the media may make it sound as if we do, but we don't. The law is clear.
He is an adult and you can't be "reckless with his safety".
He goes out on his own and finds his way home, the social services would infer from this that he has "capacity" to make his own decisions. If he has capacity, you cannot do anything other than persuade and cajole.
He lost his driving licence due to dementia?
I would suggest you go to the person who made that decision because they must know about his dementia history, you can then talk through your concerns with them.

 

[imthedaughter]

Thanks for this - what is an MC please? Sounds like a good course of action to take....

Memory Clinic. Sometimes called memory team, or sometimes I think Adult Mental Health would also do something like this.