POA - record of expenses

[Spicebabe]

If and when the time comes that PWD has to go into a CH she will be self funding. But I am aware that if/when funds run out and LA has to step in and carry out an assessment the POA will need to provide a record of expenses. Question is....when does a POA commence keeping a record of the PWD's expenses? Would it be once confirmation that the application for POA has been registered is received?

Would I be expected to account for every single expense no matter how small. And would this record have to be backdated in anyway? I've no way of knowing what was spent and on what in past years, or of obtaining any evidence to support the expenditure.

Any advice welcomed.

TIA

 

[Beate]

I don't think that's correct. I never provided anyone with a record of expenses, but I provided bank statements in a financial assessment to show the level of savings. Deputies have to fill in an annual form detailing what has been spent but attorneys don't. Of course it's a good thing to do if you're at all concerned that someone might accuse you of anything but no one's ever asked me, and I did not keep receipts for everything, just the bigger purchases.

 

[Shedrech]

hi @Spicebabe
an Attorney can only be held responsible for the donor's affairs once the LPA is registered; only then will you have the legal authority to access your mum's accounts - and of, course, if your mum still has capacity to run her own affairs, she can do so unaided, or she can ask you to help her - you will only be fully responsible when she is deemed to no longer have capacity
you do need to gain a sound overview of your mum's finances but accounting for every penny is a lot to ask of yourself - and anything your mum has done with her money, wise or unwise, is down to her not you
I use the monthly statement for dad's current account and write on a brief explanation of each entry eg groceries, toiletries, clothes ..... if you can keep receipts, all to the good, maybe staple them to the paper statement or keep in a folder, especially for items of larger amounts - all regular outgoings are by DD so are self explanatory
some members create a spreadsheet and keep that up to date
if you are ever called to make an accounting, the LA or OPG will be looking for any strange large amounts or obvious oddities eg your Council Tax payments being paid from your mum's account
so be thorough but don't worry yourself

 

[Spicebabe]

I don't think that's correct. I never provided anyone with a record of expenses, but I provided bank statements in a financial assessment to show the level of savings. Deputies have to fill in an annual form detailing what has been spent but attorneys don't. Of course it's a good thing to do if you're at all concerned that someone might accuse you of anything but no one's ever asked me, and I did not keep receipts for everything, just the bigger purchases.

Thanks Beate. I've got info overload at the moment so I may have got it wrong.

 

[Spicebabe]

hi @Spicebabe
an Attorney can only be held responsible for the donor's affairs once the LPA is registered; only then will you have the legal authority to access your mum's accounts - and of, course, if your mum still has capacity to run her own affairs, she can do so unaided, or she can ask you to help her - you will only be fully responsible when she is deemed to no longer have capacity
you do need to gain a sound overview of your mum's finances but accounting for every penny is a lot to ask of yourself - and anything your mum has done with her money, wise or unwise, is down to her not you
I use the monthly statement for dad's current account and write on a brief explanation of each entry eg groceries, toiletries, clothes ..... if you can keep receipts, all to the good, maybe staple them to the paper statement or keep in a folder, especially for items of larger amounts - all regular outgoings are by DD so are self explanatory
some members create a spreadsheet and keep that up to date
if you are ever called to make an accounting, the LA or OPG will be looking for any strange large amounts or obvious oddities eg your Council Tax payments being paid from your mum's account
so be thorough but don't worry yourself

Thanks Shedrech.....thanks for your explanation - fully understood.

 

[Spicebabe]

Hi Spicebabe. These things are a worry, aren't they? But not so daunting once you get started. You can only be expected to keep records from the date you take over the running of your PWD's finances. But of course you should keep any records from before then. I got 2 lever arch files, with dividers. In one I put bank statements, tax and pension letters, and all financial documents from before I took over. In the second, I kept everything from the date I took over. If things are simple, you can just make a note against each entry on the bank statement: pension, gas, cash, etc.
I prefer to keep a simple cash book, with all income on the left hand page and all expenses on the right. It doesn't have to be complicated, as long as you could say when asked what a payment relates to and what the PWD's total assets are on a particular date. You also need to check that you're claiming the appropriate allowances and paying any tax due. Ask if you need help.

Thanks, this helps tremendously. I'm in finance so should have no problems following your examples.

 

[Duggies-girl]

If and when the time comes that PWD has to go into a CH she will be self funding. But I am aware that if/when funds run out and LA has to step in and carry out an assessment the POA will need to provide a record of expenses. Question is....when does a POA commence keeping a record of the PWD's expenses? Would it be once confirmation that the application for POA has been registered is received?

Would I be expected to account for every single expense no matter how small. And would this record have to be backdated in anyway? I've no way of knowing what was spent and on what in past years, or of obtaining any evidence to support the expenditure.

Any advice welcomed.

TIA

I have keep no records and the POA is just sitting in a drawer. Dad's bank statements are pretty much the same every month with every thing paid by direct debit and money from pensions etc going in.

I would say my dad probably has lost capacity now as he is incapable of most things but I still let him keep his card and money as it is the last thing he has control of. I take him shopping three or four times a week and he pays out of his wallet. I take him to the supermarket cash point when he needs money every couple of weeks and I show him how to use it each time but of course he forgets although he remembers his pin number. He is exceedingly good at remembering numbers going back years.

As his only carer I think I have enough on my plate without worrying about his general day to day expenses. Dad bought me a nice scientific calculator a couple of weeks ago and I refuse to feel guilty about that. It was very nice of him.

I suppose my dad is still running his own finances in a way with a bit of help from me by helping him to access his money and get to the shops to spend it. He keeps his own receipts and then throws them in the bin. It seems to work and he is happy.

 

[lemonjuice]

Good sensible advice above.

As you say it's only if there's any query about how the PWD's finances were used that you'd have to provide relevant paperwork.

For me it just made sense to keep a running record as suggested by Normaleila and I had a small cashbook for the smaller expenses. It was more so I knew I was doing the right thing and keeping everything above board.

 

[marionq]

I asked the social worker who did a financial assessment on my husband what I should keep records of "Don't be too pedantic" was her answer. All they seemed to be interested in was the bottom line of the bank statements and investments. I suppose if anything looked suspicious they might ask for further details eg £5000 in a cheque made out to yourself.

 

[AD123]

I never had to provide any details of expenses. They just wanted bank statements. My MIL's pension was paid into the post office and I just told them it was withdrawn straight away. They never wanted to know what the cash was spent on.

 

[Duggies-girl]

Also I only took out POA because I was aware that the need for a care home may arise in the future but that won't happen now as dad has terminal cancer and I aim to keep him at home as long as is possible. He actually spends very little and his bank balance goes up considerably every month.

I wish he could spend more than he does to enable him to enjoy himself more but other than the occasional ice cream when we go out and the increasing amount of rather expensive milkshakes he consumes there is not a lot for him to spend it on.

I will probably never have to account for his spending to anyone other than the invisible who will go over everything with a fine tooth comb I am certain of that.

 

[Spicebabe]

Thanks everyone. Sound advice and comments from you all. Much appreciated.

 

[concerned4]

Large sums need an explanation, would imagine to keep yours of right keep a ledger & there should be no issues, on another side my sibling was asked to resign as financial POA due to investigation by OPG.

 

[Elle3]

I had a long chat with the LA Finance Assessor over the phone about what they require for the assessment etc. My dad is currently self funding and will be for a few more years so it’s not required yet. But the advice she gave me, is that they require about 3 months worth of bank statements, yearly interest statements, P60’s, Pension letters and investment statements. Any large expenses keep receipts for and bring with you. If you get work done on their property, try to get at least 2 quotes and be reasonable with the quote you go with. If you are selling their property again get more than one valuation to prove you are controlling the expenses with care and costs incurred in the selling process are accountable and reasonable. She said small everyday type of expenses they are not interested in, it’s when funds are depleted quicker than expected due to larger than normal expenses that they would like to see the evidence for.

To be totally honest with her, I even told her about an incident regarding some large withdrawals of cash made by dad before I took over his finances and registered the POA with bank and about a large sum of cash that went missing. I said I discovered he was keeping/hiding the money in his house. However, about 17 months ago due to him getting worried about his council tax bill which had just arrived, the money disappeared and we think he took it all out and just gave it to someone in the middle of the night, he also got lost and locked out of his house that same night and the Police were involved, we told the Police about the money but there was nothing that could be done. She even said they wouldn’t be interested in these cash withdrawals by Dad.

She also gave me some advice to purchase a funeral plan now from dads funds, so that when he is no longer self funding, the cost of the funeral will not have to be paid for out of his remaining £14,250 which is what will technically become my inheritance.

 

[Duggies-girl]

I had a long chat with the LA Finance Assessor over the phone about what they require for the assessment etc. My dad is currently self funding and will be for a few more years so it’s not required yet. But the advice she gave me, is that they require about 3 months worth of bank statements, yearly interest statements, P60’s, Pension letters and investment statements. Any large expenses keep receipts for and bring with you. If you get work done on their property, try to get at least 2 quotes and be reasonable with the quote you go with. If you are selling their property again get more than one valuation to prove you are controlling the expenses with care and costs incurred in the selling process are accountable and reasonable. She said small everyday type of expenses they are not interested in, it’s when funds are depleted quicker than expected due to larger than normal expenses that they would like to see the evidence for.

To be totally honest with her, I even told her about an incident regarding some large withdrawals of cash made by dad before I took over his finances and registered the POA with bank and about a large sum of cash that went missing. I said I discovered he was keeping/hiding the money in his house. However, about 17 months ago due to him getting worried about his council tax bill which had just arrived, the money disappeared and we think he took it all out and just gave it to someone in the middle of the night, he also got lost and locked out of his house that same night and the Police were involved, we told the Police about the money but there was nothing that could be done. She even said they wouldn’t be interested in these cash withdrawals by Dad.

She also gave me some advice to purchase a funeral plan now from dads funds, so that when he is no longer self funding, the cost of the funeral will not have to be paid for out of his remaining £14,250 which is what will technically become my inheritance.

Oh @Elle3 I keep no records as POA but dad does not spend much anyway. The funeral plan sounds like a good idea to me. At least you will not have to worry about that if it is done now.

It is a lot to take on and it all adds to the worry. Sending you hugs.

 

[Lankymad]

I've kept a written record (even of £10 cash withdrawls!) and reciepts of anything over £40; but to date no-one has asked anything. Not had to make any large purchases, couple of hundred for builders/maintainence etc, if/when I have to buy an adapted car using her cash I may inform the bank beforehand and my solicitor who dealt with dad's estate (I had POA over his finances also and had to provide nothing r/e POA before or after probate).