What Financial Records do we need to keep?

bobblehat

Registered User
Aug 16, 2015
24
0
Mum's in a home permanently now and my brothers and I are looking after her finances.

We've kept a spreadsheet of what we're spending on her behalf (home, genuine care costs, etc) but can I ask how detailed does it have to be? Do we, for example, have to keep receipts for absolutely everything?

Which kind of brings on the next question. Who will want to see these accounts (either now or in the future when she might drop below the 23 threshold) and what will they expect to see?

We're thinking about gifts also; I've read that birthday/xmas gifts are allowed for so there's no problem there, but Mum also used to give us money gifts when we visited so can we continue this practice as there's no proof that this happened in the past.

Any help appreciated! Thank you!
 

Soobee

Registered User
Aug 22, 2009
2,731
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South
If you could prove by bank statements that she gave you regular gifts in the past then you could continue - otherwise you can't, because it might look like you are depriving her of assets.

With birthdays and Christmas I was able to show (bank statements) that mum took cash out to give as presents for many years. I asked the local authority if I could continue this and provided a spreadsheet of the distribution of the amount, which they agreed.

I think if your mum is being supported - or may be supported in the future - by local authority funding that is when you need to keep all receipts and bills - everything you pay for and claim back from her. You are allowed to claim fuel costs and expenses as you shouldn't be out of pocket, but they must be recorded in case someone challenges you. I certainly have kept absolutely everything that we paid for and claimed back from my parents from when I was attorney through to the distribution of assets as executor. I am not sure of the timescale but I intend to keep them for 7 years as that is the usual.

Anybody (family member, professional) could suggest that an attorney is not acting in the best interest of the person with dementia and it is vital an attorney can show that they are not doing anything untoward at any point.

Hope that helps a bit.
 

bobblehat

Registered User
Aug 16, 2015
24
0
That's very interesting, Soobee, thank you.

The trouble is that Mum was a cash-only type of person. She'd go to the bank, get a couple of thousand pounds out and use it till it ran out then get some more. There are no previous records of gifts or anything like that. Hmm...

I'm guessing that the worst case scenario is us paying back what the LA might deem to be "unusual" gifts when the time comes. Again, hmm...
 

Soobee

Registered User
Aug 22, 2009
2,731
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South
mum was also a cash-only person. She would go the bank and withdraw, say, a £1000 and then give it back little by little to the cashier to pay each bill. Every month.
e.g. There's £540 for the credit card, here's £140 for the council tax, here's £50 for the electric. She used to go in just before the bank closed for the day and take ages so they all remembered her!
 

Soobee

Registered User
Aug 22, 2009
2,731
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South
In the worst-case scenario I believe you could be prosecuted if it could be proved you were taking money without her consent (she may not have capacity to give you consent). It's not just simply a case of paying stuff back if you are challenged.

The ten birthdays are no problem I don't think. It's the larger amounts that might look a bit suspect.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,589
0
Yorkshire
Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with the £500s, especially if the attorneys are the beneficiaries.

Here are the official guidelines

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ent_data/file/457921/PGnote_2012_02_gifts.pdf

The relevant point is that the attorneys' decisions should be in the donor's best interests. Would giving away money that might well be needed for care in the future be regarded as being in the donor's best interests? I find it difficult to justify the reasoning that council tax payers should be expected to fund any shortfall.

If in doubt, contact the OPG and see what they say.
 
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nita

Registered User
Dec 30, 2011
2,651
0
Essex
You don't say whether you have Power of Attorney or Court of Protection Deputyship. I think there is a difference between the way they are monitored. I believe you have more leeway with PoA (as consent was given before loss of capacity) than you do with Deputyship. In the latter case, the court can ask for evidence at certain intervals including bank statements and receipts. It does depend on the value of the assets as to how closely they monitor.

If she falls below the threshold, the Local Authority will be involved and will want to see that there is no evidence of deliberate deprivation of assets.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
As Nita has said, regardless of LA involvement where a financial assessment will be carried out and bank statements will be carefully scrutinised, Deputyship involves an annual detailed statement where every penny spent on behalf of the person for whom one holds the Deputyship will have to justified.
 

nita

Registered User
Dec 30, 2011
2,651
0
Essex
Deputyship involves an annual detailed statement where every penny spent on behalf of the person for whom one holds the Deputyship will have to justified.

Saffie, it does depend on the value of the assets how closely they monitor you. I have been deputy for my mother for 4 years and have never had to produce a statement. I did have one visit from a Court officer but I only had to provide a rough statement of what I had spent; she was actually more interested in my Mum's welfare. Mum's savings are under £23,000 plus she owns the house we live in.

They have a supervisory system which has changed recently but this is what it says on their website:-

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/supervision-support-visits

I have had a recent newsletter which says they are doing a rolling supervisory check on everybody over 3 years.

I should mention that, just in case, I have kept all her bank statements and receipts for what I spend. I can't face doing a spreadsheet but could if needs be. I have all the receipts in separate folders for each year. It would have been easier if I'd set it up from the start and just updated it as I went along.
 
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netsy22

Registered User
Oct 31, 2015
260
0
Mum's in a home permanently now and my brothers and I are looking after her finances.

We've kept a spreadsheet of what we're spending on her behalf (home, genuine care costs, etc) but can I ask how detailed does it have to be? Do we, for example, have to keep receipts for absolutely everything?

Which kind of brings on the next question. Who will want to see these accounts (either now or in the future when she might drop below the 23 threshold) and what will they expect to see?

We're thinking about gifts also; I've read that birthday/xmas gifts are allowed for so there's no problem there, but Mum also used to give us money gifts when we visited so can we continue this practice as there's no proof that this happened in the past.


Under LPA rules, you are not obliged to keep detailed records of spending small amounts, general housekeeping, etc. Just larger amounts (I guess over £100). No one will look at these unless your parent is being funded by the local authority and they suspect deliberate deprivation of assets. So long as the capital is intact, say for sale of property, you are OK. Gifts out of income are OK.
Inheritance tax laws on gifts are different and very specific, so if this applies to you you can easily find them online.
My mum has always given us money gifts and wants to continue to do so. She would give us the lot if we let her! What I do is write down all gifts she gives over £100 and try to curb her generosity a bit, but also be ready to give it back if her income begins to go down. We do not let her touch her capital, which is invested from the sale of her house. (it's not a huge amount and would soon disappear if she went into a NH.)
 

Beetroot

Registered User
Aug 19, 2015
360
0
I keep records of everything, but as it's an lpa, not full accounts. If ever required to do so, I could produce a balanced set of accounts. I use little cash so that annotated bank and credit card statements have most of the information and show how I've split the household expenditure between me and Mum. I keep a notebook for her or joint cash spending. Although I've been told I don't need to keep receipts for small amounts, I do in practice. Mum sometimes has specific ideas about what she'd like to give and we keep the gifts around the fifty quid mark; at other times she'll say do what you think so I do the same. Gifts are only to my sibling, her daughters and grandchildren. Either way, I keep a brief, dated note of discussions with her about gifts on my lpa file.
 

cragmaid

Registered User
Oct 18, 2010
7,936
0
North East England
My Mum would someimes have me draw £200 out...from her (Joint with me) account and say "thats half each". Rather than upset her, I took the money and made a note on her account that I kept of her finances to the effect - "Holding £100 petty cash for MS" so that there was a record of the withdrawal purpose. Then I used this money to top up her pocket money at the CH, and I bought her bits and pieces, sweeties and the like. That way she had her money, I received a gift ( as far as she was concerned) and the pocket money fund didn't run out. It all worked out nicely!!
 

Slugsta

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
2,758
0
South coast of England
Craigmaid, that's a lovely way of doing things. It allows your mum to maintain her self-respect, and feel that she is still able to give you gifts, without depleting her funds :)

This discussion has come at a good time for me. I registered LPA for Mum's finances last year and have just decided that it is the right time to get a bank card that I can use legitimately on her behalf. This means that she will no longer be able to use her own card, which is why I have not done this sooner.

Mum lives in a rented flat and has less than £5000 in savings, so her care will be funded by the LA right from the start if/when the time comes.

What level of records will I need to keep? Should bank and credit card statements be enough, with receipts for any single purchase over £100 (for instance)?
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
Even though I had LPA for Pete I still kept accounts. I knew that my LA used to random check accounts for people who were in the care system-at home and in a residential setting.

XX
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Saffie, it does depend on the value of the assets how closely they monitor you. I have been deputy for my mother for 4 years and have never had to produce a statement. I did have one visit from a Court officer but I only had to provide a rough statement of what I had spent; she was actually more interested in my Mum's welfare. Mum's savings are under £23,000 plus she owns the house we live in.

They have a supervisory system which has changed recently but this is what it says on their website:-

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/supervision-support-visits

I have had a recent newsletter which says they are doing a rolling supervisory check on everybody over 3 years.

I should mention that, just in case, I have kept all her bank statements and receipts for what I spend. I can't face doing a spreadsheet but could if needs be. I have all the receipts in separate folders for each year. It would have been easier if I'd set it up from the start and just updated it as I went along.

Definitely changed in the last two years then. My husband had under £23,250 top and we were joint owners of this house. However, he did have over the threshold before it disappeared on nursing home fees.
As I am obviously now out of date regarding Deputyship, I'll refrain from commenting.
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
5,678
0
Midlands
I had LPA, and I kept everything and accounted for every penny. receipts in A4 folder with 12 plastic pockets, one each month and dropped them in. End of month, sorted into date order and stapled.

Bank statement I wrote on against the outgoings and incoming.
 

Slugsta

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
2,758
0
South coast of England
I had LPA, and I kept everything and accounted for every penny. receipts in A4 folder with 12 plastic pockets, one each month and dropped them in. End of month, sorted into date order and stapled.

Bank statement I wrote on against the outgoings and incoming.

I'm not terribly organised at the best of times. I would find it very difficult to keep this kind of detailed record! :eek:
 

ellejay

Registered User
Jan 28, 2011
4,019
0
Essex
I'm not terribly organised at the best of times. I would find it very difficult to keep this kind of detailed record! :eek:

I keep receipts for everything regarding mum. At the end of each year, I put all receipts, bank statements & correspondence for that year in a separate folder. I also keep a "Captains Log" where I list all expenditure.

MY paperwork however, is in a big heap to be sorted "later" :rolleyes:

Lin x
 

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