Winge about money

[Selinacroft]

I feel the need to rant a bit and maybe find out how others handle things.
Dad recently diagnosed with Vascular Dementia but on a good day he can have a reasonable conversation and present as though he certainly has enough capacity for the consultant to advise me to see a solicitor to seek POA (which he wouldn't have suggested if Dad had no capacity) so I feel we are not at the stage to seek Court of Protection.
Dad has had numerous professionals discuss POA with him and I even produced a solicitor to sit down and chat with him but he is never going to sign, not that he doesn't trust me as I have 3rd party access to banks etc and deal with everything anyway.
Dad is quite comfortably off but won't touch his "capital". He keeps saying he has no income and never gets any money from anywhere (gets 2 pensions).
I live in his house so I can't sell it or move, gave up my job to care for him, work a few hours a week on very low wage plus Carers Allowance.
Dad is like a Yorkshireman crossed with a Scotsman (no offence intended) and today when the boiler broke and I asked him to sign a cheque, the usual response was "Can't you pay for it- you're working and I don't get anything from anywhere?!".
Not keen on seeking POA anyway as would need joint POA with helicopter brother and I would be answering to him then as well/instead and it would be worse.
I know I could use his bank account but he has told me not to take anything out of it so I don't feel able to. It seems as though I am meant to manage a family home plus caring off thin air. Brother wouldn't get involved . I can sit down and explain dad's finances are ok and he is happy but five minutes later he has forgotten all this and is worrying about money being spent all over again.
Thanks for listening- rant over

 

[doodle1]

Use his bank account xx

 

[fizzie]

This was a bit of a problem with my Ma initially and on the advice of others I just used the bank account for things that she would normally have paid for. To be honest I think that they lived in a different era when times were much harder and every single penny had to be watched and as they lose control of other things and fear takes over so they become even more genuinely worried about money. You just need to do it, you cannot live like that the stress will break you.
Funny!!story - i went into the Bank one day with my Ma just to sort out the accounts, fortunately we live in a small town where people 'know' each other and the 'knew' she was difficult to deal with and that she kept 'losing' her cards. As we sat down the young lady asked something about the account and my mum said "I don't know anything, she never talks to me, she just takes all my money" - I wish the world had swallowed me up. I never touched a penny and was often broke from feeding her and sorting out her toiletries etc etc, but I know she didn't mean it (hmmmmm well I like to think that) - it gave me a slightly harder shell and after that I had no problem with using the money for things that she would normally have paid for - I still paid for extras! You really really need to and just make sure you keep a record xxxx

You do get Attendance Allowance don't you??????

 

[Selinacroft]

Hi Thanks for replies
Yes I get Dad's Attendance Allowance. I made sure I set up a S/O to me when Dad was in agreement and keep it going. Dad's accused me of spending all his money once as well. He got a bank statement showing full correct balance , misread it and told me there was only £20.00 left because I had spent it all. I showed him the right place to look for the balance but did I get an apology? No chance.
I have recently started to keep receipts for things just in case I need to justify things should anything be questioned by brother/SIL at a later date.
I haven't got down to minute details like food bills, as we share food it is kind of hard to separate out. Any advice - I have been just asking for a cheque every now and again but I don't want him to get so tied up he starts saying no.

 

[1mindy]

I was wondering this morning why this money thing is a theme of dementia/alz . My OH says be has no money, I keep spending his money as do the others who have used it to buy smart cars. He is going to get someone to look at his money and put it somewhere I can't get it. We ha e had joint accounts since we married 30 years ago. I have worked in well paid positions until 12 months ago when I realised I needed to be with him.. So where this his money thing comes from I have no idea. At least I don't have
to answer to anyone else .My sympathy with you and good luck . The problem is your dad can't understand.

 

[Linbrusco]

I have always found the money aspect on e of the most difficult.
I work for a Bank, and my parents have never been great with finances, so I have always had authority on their bank accounts. Mainly to keep an on bills, balances etc.
Mum always managed their bills, and was the one with an ATM card and credit card, therfore got out money each week for Dad.
Dad has never had a card and for good cause as he gambles given the chance.

At the start of Mums Alzheimers 3 yrs ago and finding that she had given my brother her credit card and PIN and he had racked up a lot of debt, as well as not paying her bills properly I took over everything. I also have internet access to their accounts, and record every little thing. My sister & I have joint POA but do not need to use it yet.

Mum & Dad have been retired now for 13yrs.
Mum still uses her ATM card for grocery shopping, but I get out a weekly sum of personal spending money for Mum & Dad based on what they can afford off their pension. Nether of them know how much they have in the bank, and I prefer it that way

I give Mum half of hers as she has lost money before. If she doesn't spend it I put it back in her bank account.
Dad spends all of his, and then asks Mum for more of her spending money once gone, which causes so much aggravation.
He asks Mum why he hasn't got an ATM card, he never gets to see his pension, she spends all the money (not true) and the big one " we won't let him work"
He is 78, and has MCI, Mum is the one with Alzheimers.

I no longer get their bank statements sent to them, nor their bills.
I took away Mums cheque book, as Dad has been known to write out cheques when their is no money and overdrawn their account.
When a big bill needs to be paid, I have to lie about the price, and just tell them that I will sort it.
Dad will have a fit about paying a repair bill, but give him the same money in cash it would be gone in a flash no questions!

Does your dad still get bank statements? I think as long as your brother knows what you have paid, you are within your rights to do so. The problem is the grief from your father and knowing how to placate him. Hopefully... It's a tough one.

 

[Pete R]

Hi, You really need to work on that PoA, even if it means working with your brother. If the banks find out that your Dad has lost capacity they will freeze his accounts and it could be months before the courts give you access.

I too would advise using your Dads money now even if he does not like. As long as you can account for it there will be no problems.

I live in his house so I can't sell it or move, gave up my job to care for him, work a few hours a week on very low wage plus Carers Allowance.

If your Dad ever needs to go into care do you know what will happen to the house? Obviously if he has enough savings and pension and can fund it for the duration then all will be fine but if he ever needs LA help you may have problems.

I wish you well.

 

[Pear trees]

Pay the bills out of his account but keep records of every penny spent.
Get POA ASAP and lodge with bank ASAP. If it goes to Court of Protection it will take ages and be very costly. Check how you stand if he has to go into a home. Do it all before there is a crisis.
My mother always insisted she had no money and would never spend anything on her old terraced house which is falling down round her and is filthy. When I got POA I found she had over £90,000 in savings. I have since replaced boiler, furniture, am refurbing bathroom and kitchen and paid for many small jobs and items to make her more comfortable. She no longer understands where money comes from and is happy if she has her purse with plenty of notes in it.

 

[marionq]

My husband is no problem with money other than being desperate to go out and earn it. He is 82, Alzheimers and glaucoma and walks with two sticks! As long as I keep two fivers in his wallet and a pile of coins in his coin purse he is happy. I have all our accounts online and so he never sees the cost of anything. I have done a lot of decorating this year, changed the bath and shower, got new flooring - all at prices he would have resisted but since he didn't know he didn't argue.

Get done whatever is necessary and pay from your DAds account.

 

[Selinacroft]

Thank you all for your comments- much appreciated and makes me feel better knowing others understand.
The house has not been willed and "They can sort it out when I'm gone" This is attitude to everything. Brother already has own very large house and BMW , full time job and redundancy/pension from former job wile I live off my Credit card , one day knowing I can clear it!
House will no doubt need to be sold (I've never lived anywhere else) and split 50/50.
The last thing I am trying to do is spend Dad's money as that will be my own income/pension/money to buy brother out or start afresh etc etc while his share will be holiday money and university funding for offspring. We are in totally different circumstances.
There is no way in a million years I can see Dad giving POA- I have already tried extremely hard.
What are your views on food bills? Would be interested to hear on this one.

 

[Pete R]

............wile I live off my Credit card , one day knowing I can clear it!
House will no doubt need to be sold (I've never lived anywhere else) and split 50/50.
The last thing I am trying to do is spend Dad's money as that will be my own income/pension/money to buy brother out or start afresh etc etc while his share will be holiday money and university funding for offspring.

Not wishing to be blunt but I think you need to slow down quite quickly.

Your Dad's money and house only becomes yours and should only be in your plans when he is dead. Hopefully that may well be a long way off and in my previous post I asked what happens if your Dad needs to go into care or needs more care at home than you can provide. If he has savings then this will more than likely have to be used and then the value of the house will have to be considered.

 

[Selinacroft]

I'm obviously very well aware of that, I was just trying to say that I'm not trying to run away with any money, far from it as all care costs are mounting up and may well yet eat an enormous chunk. I was merely trying to illustrate the different angles that brother and myself are viewing things from.

 

[fizzie]

Can i just suggest that you investigate Power of Attorney and also that because you have always lived in the house and cared for him how you stand legally. If you haven't already done so I would make an appt with Citizens Advice (a legal appt) and get some advice. This is a minefield and it would be awful for you to lose your rights because you didn't know what they were.

I understand that you are under a huge amount of stress at the moment - you are very worried about your Dad, very worried about money and unsure about the future with a lot of decisions ahead you. Take some care of yourself in the middle of all this and keep posting, there is a lot of support on here xxx

 

[Selinacroft]

Thank you Fizzie,
I've already been to see CAB over various issues and am aware house would not need to be sold to fund care until after anything were to happen to Dad and that care payment would be deferred and sorted at probate. Equally sought advice on my "rights" and don't have any beyond the 50/50 even though I've lived here all my life and put most of my money into the house while I was working.
I didn't mean to sound as though I was living the life on riley on a credit card- far from it- used in emergencies only and as little as possible.
I feel if I went for POA my brother/sil would want a lot of say being older) and in their opinion expert with money (just because they have lots) so I would then end up under their thumb which would drive me nuts.
They play no part in Dad's care and sometimes we don't see them for 3 weeks at a time even though they live 3 miles away

 

[Pegsdaughter]

Is there someone who could act as an intermediary for all of you. Eg get you plus brother together not sil as she should not be involved and thrash this out. Brother may then be forced to face the reality of who cares, money etc. Or you could book yourself two weeks away, inform brother I am away for x it's down to you to care for dad and when the time comes go. You cannot carry on in this limbo.
Also you mentioned who pays for food etc it should be 50 50 as there are just the two of you.


Sent from my iPad using Talking Point

 

[Pete R]

I'm obviously very well aware of that, I was just trying to say that I'm not trying to run away with any money, far from it as all care costs are mounting up and may well yet eat an enormous chunk. I was merely trying to illustrate the different angles that brother and myself are viewing things from.

I didn't think you were trying to run away with the money. You are the one that is putting in the time and effort to look after your Dad. I appreciate what you are saying about your brother however what you are doing now by using your own money to pay for things your Dad should really be funding is actually reducing your eventual share even further and increasing his.

You need to be spending your Dad's money, fairly as you would, and make sure your own is separate. Your Dad has allowed you 3rd party access to his accounts so use it.

I've already been to see CAB over various issues and am aware house would not need to be sold to fund care until after anything were to happen to Dad and that care payment would be deferred and sorted at probate.

This may well not have been correct advice. It does get fairly complicated as only you know how much his total pensions are worth, how much savings he has and how long that would fund any care. If he has over £23500 in savings the LA would not be involved. Under that the LA will do a financial assessment.

If a spouse (I realise you are not) or a close relative over 60 (I assume you are not) or is "incapacited" (I assume you are not) is still living in the house then that house is completely disregarded and does not count as his capital. So cannot be used to pay for his care and there could be no deferred payment scheme.

The LA also has an option of a "Discretionary" disregard which is not easy to get but with you having always lived there, have no other home and have effectively put your life on hold to be his carer you may well qualify.

 

[susy]

Good advice from Peter there. I knew there was an age thing but I didn't know what the age was. 60, thanks Peter. I have no idea how old you are but if anywhere near to 60 then you need to be aware of this. Are you on the deeds of the house at all??

 

[Selinacroft]

Hi Pete

If a spouse (I realise you are not) or a close relative over 60 (I assume you are not) or is "incapacited" (I assume you are not) is still living in the house then that house is completely disregarded and does not count as his capital. So cannot be used to pay for his care and there could be no deferred payment scheme.

The LA also has an option of a "Discretionary" disregard which is not easy to get but with you having always lived there, have no other home and have effectively put your life on hold to be his carer you may well qualify.

Thanks for both these pieces of advice. You are correct in all your assumptions above and I only heard about the over 60 bit very recently but personally do not fall into any of the categories so I presume property would be counted.
I have never heard that advice before especially about the Discretionary Disregard so that is useful information I will keep at the back of my mind. None of this information was given to me by the CAB legal adviser, not the Carers Assessment SW. I realise that from the CA assessment point of view it was somewhat off topic and a question for later.

Hi Susy
No not named on house deeds and not yet approaching 60.

Hi Pegsdaughter
Brother has already said he would not step in- he has his own family to think of. When I have had carer breaks before I sorted out 4 visits a day from care agency, brother showed up once or twice but did not intervene when it was necessary and left things for me to sort out when I got back. If it were my brother alone then Dad would be in care by now.

 

[Pete R]

so that is useful information I will keep at the back of my mind. None of this information was given to me by the CAB legal adviser, not the Carers Assessment SW.

Annexe B Sec 42 of the New Care Act Statutory Guidance.........
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/care-act-2014-statutory-guidance-for-implementation

I do believe you have a good case much stronger than mine.

I moved in with my Mom 11 years ago to provide care before she had to go into a NH. My battle with the LA for a Discretionary Disregard has been going on for 18 months.

Start to keep records of your expenditure on the house and anything else that is for your Dad. I spent my own money on Mom's house, paid bills and bought all food which the LA are now saying "prove it" which is of course impossible to do.

Doing the "right thing" by your Dad now will probably come back to bite you in the future.

Just to clarify that although you are not 60 now if you remain in the house till you are then the disregard kicks in on that birthday.

 

[Selinacroft]

Hi Pete
Many thanks for the links- I have saved copies.
I have been recording all my care information- appointments conversations etc in a diary on advice of someone which has proved very useful.
I think I will start to record all my household expenditure as well in a cash book and keep my receipts "just in case" .