Jittery about registering EPA

[Michael E]

You can use your EPA without it being registered. The Court of Protection is only a 'means of making sure that you are doing everything above board, but they have said they don't get involved unless somebody complains to them.

I agree with Sabato & Dick, although it does to some extent depend on particular circumstances.

I have not 'bothered' to register Monique's POA as I can make all things happen without at the moment. If we had to sell the house or make major financial changes, which required her signature, then probably registration would be useful but as Dick says - 'it is only to regulate that the finances are handled in the best interests of the patient.'

The POA is a legal document in its own right - registered or not. I think.

Michael

[Tender Face]

..., and while it is unlikely he would do anything wildly stupid with his money an unscrupulous con merchant could probably get him to sign absolutely anything, so it has to be done.

Thank you so much all of you! Rosalind - that was the hammer needed on the proverbial nail!

Helena and Brucie - special thanks for the ref/link to the guardianship website - yes, it made me re-read the EPA and realise I have a legal responsibility myself to act now (or bury myself in denial and shudder at the consequences for both me and mum if I were to do that). (And there's me saying mum doesn't know what she's signing! )

Much to think about from all of you - and Margarita - I think you realised exactly where I was coming from .... it's the fact *I* am making a declaration about my mother's mental state that kicked in all the emotions. I guess getting the EPA arranged earlier this year (I've managed mum's bank accounts for years just using Third Party Mandates) was like taking out an insurance policy - you hope you're never going to have to use it...... and certainly not so soon ...

Oh well, here goes ....

Love to all, Karen (TF), x

[Doreen K]

My sister and I registered our EPA for our Mother when she was becoming unable to cope with her financial affairs. The last straw was when she was conned out of over £500 by a bogus holiday company that phones from America. This is an unscrupulous lot who say the recipient of the call has won a holiday. Mum was thrilled and gave them her bank details. The con is well known but nobody seems to be able to stop it. The only way we could stop it happening again was to remove any bank details from her house. It felt unkind to treat her this way but we made sure she always had some cash in her purse so that she felt she could still buy things when she wanted to.

It does mean more work but also peace of mind that her affairs are now in order.

All the best.

Doreen K

[Tender Face]

Sorry to disagree with so many of you.

Dick, please, no apologies certainly on my account - I find it's often the exchange of different opinions (aka 'disagreements'!) that actually helps me here ....

I also wonder what difference POA/EPA has between partners vs. parents and children ..... hugely different I gather, and would appreciate anyone who has registered EPA for a parent living independently sharing their experience.....

With appointments with the solicitors and banks arranged for next week, appreciate any thoughts on my next question:

Can anyone explain how if someone is believed to be incapable of managing their (financial affairs) they are simultaneously deemed capable of agreeing to registering the EPA?

Mum has trusted me for years to carry out her wishes..... and the Court of Protection could investigate me now and I have no qualms about the management of her money ..... ask her to relinquish her 'debit' card and I know I'm fighting a 'last bastion' of independence....

I've jotted some options to ask both banks and solicitors (like putting withdrawal limit on the card, assuming I can register POA/EPA and still allow her SOME leeway) - but if anyone has any ideas for making this painful process more transparent to mum I would really appreciate your thoughts,

Thanks all, Karen (TF), x

[Michael E]

Can anyone explain how if someone is believed to be incapable of managing their (financial affairs) they are simultaneously deemed capable of agreeing to registering the EPA?

In 'theory' people may only sign a POA BEFORE they loose their marbles... For most of us we do a 'sleight of hand'. We realise the situation is becoming untenable and ask - persuade the paitient to sign it...

How clearly they understand what they are signing is perhaps open to question but the legal requirement is that the witness and you believe that at the moment of signing they fully understood what it was and what they were doing.

There is nobody in the world, after the event, who can say whether or not they fully understood... The 'world' just has to trust the judgement of you and your witness..

The paitient does not have to agree to the registration.... They have agreed to the POA when they signed so it can be registered at any time without further reference to the paitient.. Who has now 'lost it'.

The registration is there for the protection of the paitient and is quite cleverly framed. It requires that the other close relatives are informed in writing with the option to object. It provides a platform for 'interested' parties to questing the actions of the holder(s) of the POA and require accounts..

I am sure the AZ society has a fact sheet about it but I am 99% certain that the above is correct... For people with modest amounts of money its all pretty straightforward... Millionaires might need lawyers..

Michael

[Brucie]

I agree, Michael.

[jenniferpa]

The paitient does not have to agree to the registration.... They have agreed to the POA when they signed so it can be registered at any time without further reference to the paitient.. Who has now 'lost it'.

That's not entirely true - the donor has to be notified at the time of registration, at which point they have the same rights to object as any of the other individuals you notify. For most people that's probably not going to be an issue, but I can see some circumstances where someone who is intermittently lucid might take issue with it. It wouldn't necessarilly have an effect on the outcome but the possibility is there.

[Tender Face]

That's not entirely true - the donor has to be notified at the time of registration, at which point they have the same rights to object as any of the other individuals you notify. For most people that's probably not going to be an issue, but I can see some circumstances where someone who is intermittently lucid might take issue with it. It wouldn't necessarilly have an effect on the outcome but the possibility is there.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You know exactly where I am coming from....

For me to have to tell mum that I am planning to register the EPA is the worst bit - the admin and paperwork doesn't bother me - it's just another job on top of being 'head cook and bottle washer' .........

When I mooted it first to mum, I got 'Let's just get it sorted' ..... minutes later I get the feisty independence that she is perfectly able ... (like able to disclose her PIN number which she thinks is a good thing because it's something she can remember ... it's that 'intermittently lucid' bit which is the problem - and which SHE needs protection from - one day she might watch the FTSE index, the next she can't count to ten..... Aside from minor details (!) like she can't see well, can't hear well and if someone is nice to her will go along with anything.......

My jitters are nothing to do with the basic admin of registering - it's the emotional fallout..... and denying her yet another piece of indepedence ... and battling with 'is this protecting?' - when it's ME has to spell out to her how incapable she has become ..... how do I protect her finances without protecting her best mental well-being and confidence? How do I take cards away from her - even if she's forgotten how to use them ...????? She has so much pride in her purse - even if she can't remember where she's put it.....

The way things are going... I feel it's me as POA that needs the Court of Protection...... I wouldn't dream of paying a solicitor/lawyer if I didn't think I need them and am quite capable of filling out a form..... BUT..... family issues being as they are .... it is not an issue of huge amounts of money but principles at stake.....

As it is, I'm going along with her 'whims' and some of her spending but leaving mum vulnerable..... and in doing so, leaving myself open to question.....

Why does it all feel like some kind of betrayal....????

Karen

[jenniferpa]

Tough isn't it? Pins and such are not such a problem for us - my mother never ever used her cashcard, and the pins on credit cards only came in after she had her strokes so the chances of her remembering them are zero - also the fact that I've got all of them here with me is somewhat limiting! I really should register her EPA, but my issue is that I would like to be there to explain it when the notification arrives - I can explain before and after and she won't take issue with it (the only thing she finds slightly interesting about finances now is when she gets notification that she's won on the premium bonds) but she will find it distressing. Does anyone know what the envelope looks like? If I could identify it, I would get her care manager to be with her when she opened it and be on the phone at the same time so I could explain (again) what's going on. Also the CM can make sure it's put away, otherwise she'll pick it up again, look at it, and we'll have to go through the whole darn thing again.

Jennifer

[Brucie]

Does anyone know what the envelope looks like?

All that came for us was the returned, officially stamped EPA that I had sent to the Court of Protection.

There was no other paperwork involved, certainly nothing that would have been addressed to my wife.

Someone does need to receive the registered EPA however - the CoP does not hold it - the Attorney does.

[jenniferpa]

I sort of assumed that it could be sent directly to me in the US - I'll have to check that. Having gone through it, Bruce, could you clarify something for me? I imagine that as it was for your spouse, you simply informed her that you were doing it, rather than sending written notification (the form on the Guardianship site simply says they must be informed in person, not that it has to be written). I see from re-reading it that it is up to the attourney to send the notifications, rather than the court which I had assumed to be the case. That makes it considerably easier for me - I can send a letter enclosed in another letter to make sure that mummy has someone there when it's given to her.

I think both Karen and I assumed that the donor was officially notified by the court, but this does not seem to be the case. Am I correct about this?

Jennifer

Oh $%^%%^*^%^! I do not see how I can fill out the form on the website with a US address - I'll have to call them on Monday.

[Brucie]

you simply informed her that you were doing it

Perhaps i'm not a good example to take as, while Jan is an early onset sufferer, she advanced in her condition really quickly. I waited until something needed to happen before registering the EPA - in our case it was the need to sell the house and move somewhere less expensive and smaller.

That was when I registered the EPA. There was relly no point in my even trying to tell her about it as, by that time, her comprehension, sight and speech had pretty much gone.

I've always been a 'do things at the last minute' person. We only just managed to get the original EPA signed by Jan, in the presence of our solicitor, before, a few weeks later, she could not have done so.

I assumed that the donor was officially notified by the court, but this does not seem to be the case. Am I correct about this?

That is what I believe to be true.

I'll have to call them on Monday

The person I spoke to on the Guardianship help line at the time I wanted to register the EPA was hugely helpful.

[DickG]

Hi Karen

A word of warning form the solicitor who advised me on the EPA for my neighbour, do not place total trust in solicitors! As he said me they are just like any other business men/women, they are out to make money. At the end of the day - caveat emptor.

Dick

[ludwig]

Karen,
I've had an EPA for my Mum for about 18 months. I set it up myself using the standard forms as previous in this thread. The banks and Building Societies were very good, although I worked with a barrister who could authorise copies easily so that helped. Supplying the documentation to get access was a bit of a rigmarole though.
I even have access to my Mums Barclays account on line as well as my own. Only the Alliance & Leicester were a pain where I opened a further newer internet account for her (higher interest) but they refused to use the same documentation as logged for her first one. My reading was they made it as difficult as possible for me to get the higher interest so I didn't bother.

Mum is getting worse and is clearly mentally incapable now so I'm looking at registration (probably should have done it some time ago but were closer to a home now, so may have to sell the house) the local solicitor wants £400 but looking at the website as advised, I think I can do it myself at £120.

Its horrible, but you have to do whats best.

Keep smiling
Ludwig