Angry Gran regarding not being able to drive her car

[Saffie]

It is often difficult for a driver - especially a male driver for some obscure reason, to accept that their driving ability is becoming poor. it is often other people who notice. It only needs a second's lack of concentration for an accident to happen but a lifetime of regret to follow - never mind about the grief and agony to others.

[trigger]

rough guesstimate is that there are approximately 21million cars on the road
As society progresses and technology advances we seem to all be increasingly connected and in turn distracted. Distracted driving laws are now being considered by the national lawmakers in order to curb the thousands of distracted driving accidents, but what about distracted walking?
Whether we have a cell phone in our faces or music blasting in our ears, it seems that everyone is walking around with headphones. Though there are some people who walk around wearing headphones just to avoid talking to people on the street, the majority of people are listening to something.

[Saffie]

Extra vigilance required then!!!

[Tony]

Rules For Pedestrians
Road Signs

1. Pavements or footpaths should be used if provided. Where possible, avoid walking next to the kerb with your back to the traffic. If you have to step into the road, look both ways first.

2. If there is no pavement or footpath, walk on the right-hand side of the road so that you can see oncoming traffic. You should take extra care and be prepared to walk in single file, especially on narrow roads or in poor light keep close to the side of the road. It may be safer to cross the road well before a sharp right-hand bend (so that oncoming traffic has a better chance of seeing you). Cross back after the bend.

3. Help other road users to see you. Wear or carry something light coloured, bright or fluorescent in poor daylight conditions. When it is dark, use reflective materials (e.g. armbands, sashes, waistcoats and jackets), which can be seen, by drivers using headlights, up to three times as far away as non-reflective materials.

4. Young children should not be out alone on the pavement or road (see Rule 7). When taking children out, walk between them and the traffic and hold their hands firmly. Strap very young children into push-chairs or use reins.

5. Organised walks. Groups of people should use a path if available; if one is not, they should keep to the left. Look-outs should be positioned at the front and back of the group, and they should wear fluorescent clothes in daylight and reflective clothes in the dark. At night, the look-out in front should carry a white light and the one at the back a red light. People on the outside of large groups should also carry lights and wear reflective clothing.

6. Motorways. You MUST NOT walk on motorways or slip roads except in an emergency (see Rule 249)

7. 7: The Green Cross Code. The advice given below on crossing the road is for all pedestrians. Children should be taught the Code and should not be allowed out alone until they can understand and use it properly. The age when they can do this is different for each child. Many children cannot judge how fast vehicles are going or how far away they are. Children learn by example, so parents and carers should always use the Code in full when out with their children. They are responsible for deciding at what age children can use it safely by themselves.

a. First find a safe place to cross. It is safer to cross using a subway, a footbridge, an island, a zebra, pelican, toucan or puffin crossing, or where there is a crossing point controlled by a police officer, a school crossing patrol or a traffic warden. Where there is a crossing nearby, use it. Otherwise choose a place where you can see clearly in all directions. Try to avoid crossing between parked cars (see Rule 14) and on blind bends and brows of hills. Move to a space where drivers can see you clearly.
b. Stop just before you get to the kerb, where you can see if anything is coming. Do not get too close to the traffic. If there is no pavement, keep back from the edge of the road but make sure you can still see approaching traffic.
c. Look all around for traffic and listen. Traffic could come from any direction. Listen as well, because you can sometimes hear traffic before you see it.
d. If traffic is coming, let it pass. Look all around again and listen. Do not cross until there is a safe gap in the traffic and you are certain that there is plenty of time. Remember, even if traffic is a long way off, it may be approaching very quickly.
e. When it is safe, go straight across the road - do not run. Keep looking and listening for traffic while you cross, in case there is any traffic you did not see, or in case other traffic appears suddenly.

8. At a junction. When crossing the road, look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you.

9. Pedestrian Safety Barriers. Where there are barriers, cross the road only at the gaps provided for pedestrians. Do not climb over the barriers or walk between them and the road.

10. Tactile paving. Small raised studs which can be felt underfoot may be used to advise blind or partially sighted people that they are approaching a crossing point with a dropped kerb.

11. One-way streets. Check which way the traffic is moving. Do not cross until it is safe to do so without stopping. Bus and cycle lanes may operate in the opposite direction to the rest of the traffic.

12. Bus and cycle lanes. Take care when crossing these lanes as traffic may be moving faster than in the other lanes, or against the flow of traffic.

13. Routes shared with cyclists. Cycle tracks may run alongside footpaths, with a dividing line segregating the two. Keep to the section for pedestrians. Take extra care where cyclists and pedestrians share the same path without separation (see Rule 48).

14. Parked vehicles. If you have to cross between parked vehicles, use the outside edges of the vehicles as if they were the kerb. Stop there and make sure you can see all around and that the traffic can see you. Never cross the road in front of, or behind, any vehicle with its engine running, especially a large vehicle, as the driver may not be able to see you.

15. Reversing vehicles. Never cross behind a vehicle which is reversing, showing white reversing lights or sounding a warning.

16. Moving vehicles. You MUST NOT get on to or hold on to a moving vehicle.

17. At night. Wear something reflective to make it easier for others to see you (see Rule 3). If there is no pedestrian crossing nearby, cross the road near a street light so that traffic can see you more easily.

18. At all crossings. When using any type of crossing you should

always check that the traffic has stopped before you start to cross or push a pram onto a crossing
always cross between the studs or over the zebra markings. Do not cross at the side of the crossing or on the zig-zag lines, as it can be dangerous.
You MUST NOT loiter on zebra, pelican or puffin crossings.

19. Zebra crossings. Give traffic plenty of time to see you and to stop before you start to cross. Vehicles will need more time when the road is slippery. Remember that traffic does not have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing. Wait until traffic has stopped from both directions or the road is clear before crossing. Keep looking both ways, and listening, in case a driver or rider has not seen you and attempts to overtake a vehicle that has stopped.

20. Where there is an island in the middle of a zebra crossing, wait on the island and follow Rule 19 before you cross the second half of the road - it is a separate crossing.

21. At traffic lights. There may be special signals for pedestrians. You should only start to cross the road when the green figure shows. If you have started to cross the road and the green figure goes out, you should still have time to reach the other side, but do not delay. If no pedestrian signals have been provided, watch carefully and do not cross until the traffic lights are red and the traffic has stopped. Keep looking and check for traffic that may be turning the corner. Remember that traffic lights may let traffic move in some lanes while traffic in other lanes has stopped.

22. Pelican crossings. These are signal-controlled crossings operated by pedestrians. Push the control button to activate the traffic signals. When the red figure shows, do not cross. When a steady green figure shows, check the traffic has stopped then cross with care. When the green figure begins to flash you should not start to cross. If you have already started you should have time to finish crossing safely.

23. At some pelican crossings there is a bleeping sound to indicate to blind or partially-sighted people when the steady green figure is showing, and there may be a tactile signal to help deafblind people.

24. When the road is congested, traffic on your side of the road may be forced to stop even though their lights are green. Traffic may still be moving on the other side of the road, so press the button and wait for the signal to cross.

25. Puffin and toucan crossings. These differ from pelican crossings as there is no flashing green figure phase. On puffin crossings the red and green figures are above the control box on your side of the road. Press the button and wait for the green figure to show. On toucan crossings cyclists are permitted to ride across the road (see Rule 65).

26. 'Staggered' pelican or puffin crossings. When the crossings on each side of the central refuge are not in line they are two separate crossings. On reaching the central island press the button again and wait for a steady green figure.

27. Crossings controlled by an authorised person. Do not cross the road unless you are signalled to do so by a police officer, traffic warden or school crossing patrol. Always cross in front of them.

28. Where there are no controlled crossing points available it is advisable to cross where there is an island in the middle of the road. Use the Green Cross Code to cross to the island and then stop and use it again to cross the second half of the road.

29. Emergency vehicles. If an ambulance, fire engine, police or other emergency vehicle approaches using flashing blue lights, headlights and/or sirens, keep off the road.

30. Buses. Get on or off a bus only when it has stopped to allow you to do so. Watch out for cyclists when you are getting off. Never cross the road directly behind or in front of a bus; wait until it has moved off and you can see clearly in both directions.

31. Tramways. These may run through pedestrian areas. Their path will be marked out by shallow kerbs, changes in the paving or other road surface, white lines or yellow dots. Cross at designated crossings where provided. Flashing amber lights may warn you that a tram is approaching. Elsewhere look both ways along the track before crossing. Do not walk along the track. Trams move quickly and silently and cannot steer to avoid you.

32. Railway level crossings. Do not cross if the red lights show, an alarm is sounding or the barriers are being lowered. The tone of the alarm will change if another train is approaching. If there are no lights, alarms or barriers, stop, look both ways and listen before crossing.

33. Street and pavement repairs. A pavement may be closed temporarily because it is not safe to use. Take extra care if you are directed to walk in or to cross the road.

[Butter]

Pedestrians are not very likely to run vehicles over.

[Saffie]

Pedestrians aren't the ones driving a lethal weapon either.

[trigger]

One cab driver said to another: "Why have you got one side of your cab painted red and the other side painted blue?"

"Well, when I get in an accident, the police always believe my version of what happened, because all the witnesses contradict each other."

[stevwarn]

Thanks again to everyone who has posted.

I have spoken to gran tonight, she seems less angry and no mention of the car. Result! She did talk about a friend who has just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and said "poor soul it is very common these days, years ago you were just labeled mad".

I fully recognise that Alzheimer's dosn't equal no driving, but my gran was a poor driver before the pseudo diagnosis. I know she would not like the idea of a mobility scooter. What makes things sad is that her son was killed in an RTA involving another vehicle. People who know gran state that she was always a bad driver and she never passed a driving test, I guess because they didn't have them back then. I will speak to DVLA tomorrow when they are open.

[grove]

Hello Everybody , The "Title " says it all doe's it not ? In 2009 my Father was told he had Dementia ( after Appt / Tests at M Clinic ) & at the time he was still ok to drive , however as the Dementia "progressed " . I soon noticed that Dad found it hard to "think & do " with day to day living ( skills ) . This problem i strongly feel made his Driving WORSE & that is why he had 3 "unsafe driving do's " ( looking back think it was more than 3 )

That is why did not want Dad driving a Holiday Rental Car & nor did the G P ( Parents were going away on the Train but wanted the use of a Car ) The driving problem was sorted out before the Holiday & Dad did not drive after that ! Every driver has to be able to "think & do " ( Brain ) very , very quickly & Dad was not safe when driving . Am pleased that i stopped Dad from driving when i did & that he did not have a Crash / hurt any body etc , etc ( Dad did NOT understand he was unsafe when he was driving ) ( So had to stop him as Mum was not able to do so )

Love Grove x

[optocarol]

I would like to make it clear that I am NOT supporting unsafe driving. In fact I was instrumental in my husband's losing his licence. (He doesn't know that.) I certainly would phone the police if he drove and I knew he did. In spite of that I would not consider him a danger on a mobility scooter. It does mean I think some people would be and maybe Gran is one of them.

I am in New Zealand and the rules are:
"The rule says you must drive your scooter on the footpath if one is available. You should only drive on the road if there is no alternative, and should keep as close as is practical to the edge of the road at all times. Use pedestrian crossings and traffic lights to cross the road where they are available."

"Mobility scooters aren't considered to be motor vehicles, provided they are no more than 90cm wide and have a maximum possible speed of six kilometres per hour." (Consumer.org.nz)

I can't remember ever seeing a scooter on the road here, other than to cross it.

[Tony]

Taken from a BBC report

A mobility scooter menace?


A number of high-profile accidents involving mobility scooters have raised concern that drivers cannot be prosecuted and caused some to float the idea of testing users.
With a top speed of 4mph for the mobility scooters designed to travel on pavements, you might think that it was hard for their users to drive dangerously.

No official statistics exist for the number of accidents involving the scooters, but there are tales from around the country of old ladies steering into shop windows, mobility scooters trundling along motorways and even people driving off railway platforms.

There have even been injuries to pedestrians. Last year two-year-old Madison McNair was knocked down by a 70-year-old woman driving a mobility scooter on a pedestrianised street in Doncaster.

Caught in the wheels of the machine, the toddler was dragged down the road as the driver carried on apparently unaware of what had happened. Since mobility scooters are exempt from the Road Traffic Act the police were powerless to act against the driver.

SCOOTER RULES
Class two vehicles with 4mph speed limit, designed to be used on pavements
Class three vehicles with 8mph speed limit can be used on pavement and road
4mph speed limit on pavements and pedestrian areas


Mobility scooter rules
Parents want scooter law change
Mobility scooter crash woman dies
The death of 90-year-old Lilian Macey in September led to no action by police against the scooter driver allegedly responsible.

The level of concern is such that in February a committee of MPs will begin an inquiry looking at safety implications. One of the issues they will examine is whether scooter drivers should get some kind of formal training before going out on to the streets.

The idea is already being put into practice by Norfolk Police and a handful of other forces. In Norfolk, impetus was generated by the volume of complaints about accidents being caused by the electric vehicles on Great Yarmouth's streets and pavements.

A combination of affordability and an aging population has led to a significant increase in the number of mobility scooters being driven around the town.

"In the market place if you speak to the traders they will always tell you a tale of their vegetables being knocked over or people being run into by mobility scooter users," says Penny Carpenter, of Norfolk Police.

Scooter school for mobility drivers
"Some people have even been banned from stores for knocking over aisles."

The resulting course has elements of a traditional driving test, something that one of the participants, Ken, passed years ago.

He has to glance over unfamiliar dials sunk into the dashboard in front of him. He leans forward to adjust the rear view mirror as his police instructor demonstrates how the indicators work and where to find the horn.

"Have you ever driven one of these before?" the instructor asks. "No," replies Ken. "This is my first time."

What I think we need is some kind of cycle proficiency test for mobility scooters

Jeff Ennis MP
A line of cones marks out the slalom course the 71-year-old has to weave his vehicle through. The cones are just the first in a whole series of obstacles.

"You mustn't run the cones over," says Ken's instructor as he steers his way slowly down the track laid out in an indoor hall on the outskirts of Great Yarmouth. "Think of them as people," he says.

Moments later there is a crunch of plastic as a back wheel clips a cone.

Slalom section out of the way, there is a tight right hander around a wheelie bin to get past followed by a sharp left into a narrow parking bay.

Life-size mannequins stand in awkward places around the course to simulate pedestrians on the High Street. Other hazards include roadwork signs, a step ladder and a speed bump.

Compared with a car the controls on a mobility scooter are fairly simple. One lever to go forward, another to go backwards. There are no brakes as such but they stop fairly quickly once the lever is released.

Crumpled cones

A dial on the dashboard controls the speed. You steer using the handlebars at the front. People who use them say they are easy to drive but judging by the number of crumpled cones on the test track there is more to it than meets the eye.


Scooters do not have an image problem, but concern is rising over regulation
"Anyone can get a mobility scooter and you don't have to have a licence," says Ms Carpenter.

"There's no test involved. There's no legal requirement to have insurance and anybody can drive one with no training at all."

The courses, there have been two of them so far, aim to fill that gap. Improving users' handling skills and creating an awareness of road safety are all key, as is instilling a sense of pavement etiquette.

It takes about 25 minutes to complete, but there is no pass or fail. So far more than 50 people have volunteered to do it. And it is not just for beginners. The majority are people who have been using their scooters for years.

Shiela Adair, 64, is one of them. "Even though I've used a scooter before the course was ideal to learn about reversing."

But she believes that cyclists riding on the pavements are a bigger menace to pedestrians than mobility scooters. Besides, she argues, pedestrians often have themselves to blame for not looking where they are going.

"People tend to walk straight out in front of you especially coming out of shops," she says. "And at times I've had to just quickly stop so I don't hit them."

MP Jeff Ennis is hoping for a debate on the issue in the House of Commons later this month. "Although retailers do give some kind of training it is by no means mandatory," he says.

Three strikes

"So what I think we need is some kind of cycle proficiency test for mobility scooters."

On top of that he believes a "three-strikes-and-you-are-out" rule should be enforced to weed those who prove to be a danger to themselves and everyone else.

Unsurprisingly there is some dissent from users. Many agree something needs to be done to improve safety, but most are wary of any threat to take away their scooter and the freedom it affords them.

The Department for Transport has not indicated it will change the legislation, but pressure is mounting.

If anything is done, the problem will be in striking a balance between protecting the safety of individuals and the rights of mobility scooter users.



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Below is a selection of your comments.

I'm 44 years old, a car driver with a clean licence, an occasional cyclist, a runner, and a daily dog walker. I used a mobility scooter for three months this summer due to a broken leg, and I wholly endorse moves to introduce some sort of test. Driving the scooter was completely unlike any of the modes of transport I normally use, and the fact that they appear slow lulls the driver into a false sense of security re: both their own safety and that of pedestrians. The experience also highlighted the appalling and, at times, downright dangerous state of our pavements.
Val, Petersfield

I remember being mowed into in John Lewis Newcastle by an elderly gentleman who merely carried on at the same speed through the shop without being stopped. I suffered bruising to say the least. I feel scooters should have a reasonable speed limit. I mean, where are they going in such a rush anyway? The gentlemen did not have any concern for anyone and literally ploughed into me because he could not get passed as they were demonstrating some item in the shop.
Connie Mackay, Norton Cleveland

I believe mobility scooters should *only* restore their users' parity with pedestrians - 4mph is a reasonably brisk walking pace, so why do they need 8mph? And why, if I'm walking along at a reasonable pace, should scooter users feel entitled to hoot me to get out of the way?
Brent Longborough, Abersychan, Wales

It's a matter of commonsense, consideration and courtesy. I'd be stuck indoors were it not for my scooter, but I make allowances and assume that nobody else can see me. Just as an assist, I have a bundle of tiny bells on my scooter, which sweetly alert folk to my presence.
Ann Prior, Exmouth, Devon, England

I made sure I was covered for public liability through my house insurance in respect of my mobility scooter. It didn't cost me anymore to do so. I have seen many bad drivers of these vehicles, they seem to think everyone should give way to them. That said, I would be prepared to take a course and to pay for a licence if necessary because the ability to get out into the fresh air means so much to me. I am a car driver by the way. Mums with children are a hazard these days because the children are mostly allowed to run free without restraints.
B Phillips, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk

I totally agree with the idea of training for mobility scooter users and would go even further and make it law that they should have insurance so that anyone injured by them would be able to claim against them. Mobility scooters should be for those in real need of them, unfortunately this is not always the case.
Mike, Eastbourne

They are an absolute pain when given to the wrong people. We have a couple who ride as a tandem into the town on the roads, the pathways are wide enough for them to get to town, but like most of these users they feel it is there right to hold traffic up. This town has a bad enough traffic problem as it is!
Robyn, Lowestoft

Why does the government believe a license is the solution to everything? Why not just mandate that the scooters should have more safety features - such as a sensitive electric 'bumper' which on contact stops the scooter should do it, which fits around the outside perimeter of the scooter, a couple of inches / about half-wheel in height. And a speed limiter based on sensors detecting nearby objects. In stores / busy areas max speed could be limited to 2 mph, for example.
Anon, Edinburgh

The real problem is the number of people driving these at all. Most seem to be driven by younger obese people rather than the image portrayed in the article of the elderly using them to get out and about.
John , Harrogate

We in Balsall Common have a lot of these scooters, one in particular travels at about 20mph, it's been modified by the gentleman that drives it, although for people who are unable to walk these scooters are a great way to get about. They should be caring some sort of insurance and yes, they should have a test to see if they can handle one properly.

[Christin]

Hello Stevwar, I am sorry that your gran has reached this stage, she is losing her independence and I think she may fight that all the way. I suspect most of us would in her situation.

To be completely honest with you, I think you have to tell yourself that you are doing this for the right reasons, for her safety and others! The post about how she pushed someone across the car park clearly explains to us that she is not safe to drive.

We had to take my FIL's keys away from him. The last time I was in the car, with him driving, he tried to turn left up a footpath. We tried to reason with him about his driving but he just didn't understand and when we said he might run someone over he replied it would be their fault for getting in the way.

Even when he did promise not to drive our neighbours told us he had been out in the car while we were at work. In the end we made up a story about someone who desperately needed a car and had asked if they could buy his. We told him the insurance was incredibly expensive, which it was as his age, and did he really want to spend that much money. In the end we did sell the car and that was the only way to solve this very sad problem.

I am sorry to say I don't think your grand will ever understand or thank you. We don't care for our loved ones to have them thank us, we do it to keep them safe. And it is a very difficult journey to make.

[Tatra Man]

My Gran (aged 83yrs) . . . . . . .

People who know gran state that she was always a bad driver and she never passed a driving test, I guess because they didn't have them back then.

The driving test was made compulsory on the 1st of June 1935 for all drivers who started driving on or after 1st of April 1934 - when your gran would have been 4 or 5. However, the test was suspended from the 2nd of September 1939, initially for the duration of World War Two but didn't actually resume until the 1st of November 1946 when your gran was probably 17 so she might, just, have had a provisional licence. Then, on the 18th of February 1947 a period of a year was granted for wartime provisional licences to be converted into full licences without passing the test.

So it is just possible for your gran never to have passed a test.

Believe it or not, the first person to pass a UK driving test was a Mr. Been!!!

[supporter1]

When my dad was admitted to hospital and was really unwell and confused my mum eraised the alarm to us initially that this was a major issue ( we had a feeling anyway but in truth had not grasped the severity of the problem at that stage) . I spoke with the GP ( he was shocked that dad was still driving ) , I spoke with the hospital staff ( they were equally shocked that he was driving and said under no circumstances should he be ). So we removed the car.

he

Dad was very unsettled on returning home ( we told him car was being repaired at this stage) , where is the car ? someone has stolen it ...he wandered and stopped people in the street asking to be taken to the police station as 'we' had stolen car ... after three days of distress it finally exploded and my mum said dont leave me with him any more as she had taken both the physical and the verbal flack. 2 hours later after a stand off with the police ( they said absolutely no driving ) and ambulance he was taken back to the general hospital .

The Psychiatric nurse in the general hospital thought his reaction was reasonable to his car being removed What the hell are we all supposed to do As a caring family we want to keep him safe , we want to keep others on the road safe but we are left to take the action and be the bad person !

My father has since been diagnose with Altzheimers and is now is a CH . We now know that he had unfortunately had quite a few small ( thankfully ) accidents , he had been driving 50 + miles a day with my mum to navigate ( his equivalent to wandering ) , he would get home and be exhaused and have no recollection where they had been . Mum would be exhaused by the daily ritual too.

To this day dad still tells me on most visits that he has had a medical and can now drive

The issue for me regarding driving is that it is basically the final acknowledgement that their lives are changing and I guess ( at least for dad ) he clung onto it for grime death to appear as if everything was ok ( I do think he had some idea that it was not but I could be wrong) and to accomodate his need to wander ( his is frail and cannot walk any great distance)

IT is hard to do but sometimes familes are left to take the hard decisions to protect their family member and everyone else out on the road.

[Tatra Man]

Quite right.

I was very lucky in that my father realised there was a problem with continuing driving before his dementia had advanced sufficiently for it to be dangerous. Maybe it was because his dementia was only partially Alzheimers (partially vascular) and he retained much more of his personality and sense-of-humour than those suffering from purely Alzheimers appear to.

Anyway, he surrendered his licence and sold his car with no prompting from me and only years later did he talk about applying to get his licence back again. Thankfully he never did.