Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    54

    power of attorney

    ive not posted on here for some time as my mam had been quite stable for sometimes, but 2 weeks ago she had a stroke and went to hospital.i wasnt happy with the way she was treated and complained to the patient liason service.
    they have told me that they cant investigate without my mams permission or proof of p.o.a. which i dont have and mam doesnt have capacity.
    can someone please explain how i go about getting p.o.a. i have a meeting with mams doctor on wednesday and would like to have the forms ready if i need them...ive no idea if i do or not!
    thanks
    debbie
     

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,391
    A Power of Attorney is where one person (called the donor) grants another (called the attorney) authority to deal with certain affairs or certain decisions on their behalf.

    To do this they make a document called a Lasting Power of Attorney - or LPA. There are two sorts - Financial and Health & Welfare. The donor can make either or both. Financial grants authority to manage their financial affairs, Health & Welfare grants authority to make some decisions about healthcare and so on.

    Financial can be active at any time, although the LPA usually contains a condition that it can only be used when the donor loses capacity. Health & Welfare can only be used when that happens. Both types can place limits or conditions.

    The problem is that the donor must have "mental capacity" to actually create them. This is because they are very powerful documents that grant the attorney a lot of authority. The test would be that the donor understands what the LPAs do and what they are for.

    Sadly it sounds as though your mam wouldn't have this. At the very least you would need medical evidence to say that she did, otherwise, the LPAs would be invalid (and they are usually created by a legal professional, espescially Health and Welfare - they would want to be sure their client knew what they were doing)

    If there is no LPA and the donor has lost capacity, the only recourse is to go to the Court of Protection and ask for them to grant deputyship. A deputy is like an attorney. But it is extremely rare for the Court to grant powers of Health and Welfare since it is being done without the donor's knowledge or permission.

    This all said, it sounds extremely fishy that a hospital can't investigate a patient's care without their permission (what if someone had died? and there must surely be provisions to do so when a patient is incapable of doing this - lack of mental capacity, in a coma, whatever?)

    It might be a case that medical confidentiality is preventing access to your mam's medical records. In that case, in might be possible for her to give permission specifically for that - sometimes even verbal permission is enough. Although, again, the person asking might need to know that your mam was aware of what she was doing.

    I would get in touch with the hospital's PALS service - they are there to advice patients and relatives and will know the legalities

    Unfortunately, LPAs are much more than filling in some forms. But it might be possible for your mam to sign some sort of consent form I guess.
     

  3. #3
    Volunteer Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wigan, Lancs
    Posts
    8,419
    Blog Entries
    21
    I contacted PALS a couple of times and nobody asked if I had Power of Attorney (which I did).

    I suspect you are being fobbed off. Have a look at this link on What is PALS?
    Sue

    Former carer and Volunteer Moderator

    About me
     

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Yorkshire
    Posts
    266
    I have to agree with that.I don't think whether a relative has POA or not has got anything to do with family concerns that the delivery of care to their loved one falls below an acceptable standard & needs further investigation.
    I've worked in the NHS for many years & It's not something I've heard being asked for,certainly in this senario.You aren't asking to look at medical notes,just an explanation of what's been happening surely ?
    Val
     

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    103
    I too believe they are fobbing you off,I have a complaint being investigated now against the SS,hospital trust and CH..................................Ask them for their complaints procedure ,they have to have one and they have to tell you what it is

    I don't have POA (yet) but they are listening to me


    Good luck
     

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    54
    thanks for the advice but i have sent my complaint to PAL and its them that have asked for either a signature from mam, who doesnt have capacity, or POW, i dont know where to get the forms from or how long it takes to go through, the only forms i can find are for people who still have capacity.
     

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Yorkshire
    Posts
    266
    Is it worth contacting a solicitor for advice ?
    Val x
     

  8. #8
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,391
    I suspect the problem at the heart of this is that whoever investigates will need to look at your mam's medical records. This can be a problem if they are not directly involved with her medical care. It may require your mam's permission - or permission from someone to whom your mam has granted authority, via a power of attorney.

    As you have found out, your mam can only grant a power of attorney if she has 'mental capacity' and it sounds as though she no longer has this.

    It's a Catch-22 situation.

    This said, I find it unbelievable that a hospital is completely unable to investigate care issues in the abcense of all this. There must be situations in which a patient is incapable of giving permission, not just because they lack mental capacity either; what if your mam was in a coma, for example?

    Be wary about solicitors - this is quite a specialised area of law and may not be something a family solicitor will have encountered. Their advice could also be very expensive - and could be unhelpfuly vague.

    I'll repeat, there must be provisions for dealing with this problem, it is impossible that your case is unique - or the first ever!

    is there any way at all that your mam could be persuaded to sign a permission document?
     

  9. #9
    I came across this, (sorry its a long read)

    http://www.publications.parliament.u...86/786vw31.htm

    (Sorry a long read)

    It highlights the problems.

    Would it be worth phoning the Public Guardian office and enquiring whether you
    could apply to be your Mums deputy?

    I did this is order to handle my fathers financial interests, when he was no longer had mental capacity to grant me POA

    You can apply to be a deputy for finances and/or deputy for health and welfare.
    The latter is apparently very hard to get, however you have nothing to loose if you explain the circumstances.


    I would also be contacting my mp.
     

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Yorkshire
    Posts
    266
    But I would have thought a senior doctor ie the consultant involved in your mothers care would be asked to "review" her notes & comment and the ward manager review her nurses documentation. As the senior professionals responsible & accountable for your mother's care & well being,they don't need "permission" to read her notes/nursing documentation. They are being requested to investigate a complaint & need access to the relevant documentation to do that,which at the end of the day is in your mother's & your interests.
    Sorry to go on.
    PS: When my brother died in hospital after being involved in a car accident,there were certain aspects of his care delivery that we,as a family,had concerns over,he wasn't there for the staff to ask his permission to read his notes.
    Don't mean to be flippant
    Val
    Last edited by Mun; 01-05-2012 at 07:25 PM.
     

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    13

    Complaints

    You absolutely DO NOT require POA to complain on your mothers behalf.
    You are legally entitled to do so as next of kin.

    In Wales you need to read WAG guidance:
    http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sites3/docop...94104BC830AA7E

    There will be similar for England.

    4.32 Staff dealing with concerns must be aware of the potential for any safeguarding issues to apply, in particular in relation to a child or a vulnerable adult. Safeguarding means enabling people to live their lives free from harm, abuse and neglect, and to have their health, wellbeing and human rights protected.

    4.33 It is the responsibility of Welsh NHS bodies which secure or provide care to children and vulnerable adults, to provide a safe environment that promotes their health and well-being and aids their recovery from illness or injury.

    4.34 Training on safeguarding is crucial to developing a culture and practice that recognises the vulnerability of particular patient groups, as in some cases it may be clear that the concern has an element of safeguarding, but in others this may not be immediately apparent. The questions that should be asked are:
    • Could this be a safeguarding issue?
    • Does the concern involve a child or a vulnerable adult or both?
    • Is a referral to another agency necessary?
    • Do your systems for recording data reflect safeguarding issues?

    4.35 If there is doubt as to whether a concern is a safeguarding issue, do not leave it to chance, you should be linking to the organisational lead for Child Protection and Protection of Vulnerable Adults (POVA) for further advice and support. This will be outlined in your local policies and procedures which must be adhered to at all times.

    4.36 The Wales Interim Policy and Procedures for the Protection of Vulnerable Adults from Abuse dated November 2010 defines a vulnerable adult as “a person over the age of 18 years of age who is or may be in need of community care services by reason of mental or other disability, age or illness and who is or may be unable to take care of himself/herself, or unable to protect himself/herself from significant harm or serious exploitation”. The Policy states that if there is a possibility of abuse, criminal or non-criminal, the adult protection procedures must take precedence.

    4.37 The purpose of an adult protection investigation includes gathering, securing and preserving information and evidence, establishing facts and reaching a conclusion about whether or not abuse occurred. If abuse is suspected, the vulnerable adult and any other witnesses will be questioned as part of the investigation. It may be concluded at the Strategy Meeting that an adult protection investigation is not required in which case a putting things right investigation may be commenced, if appropriate.

    Local CHC will support you through complaint process.
     

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Yorkshire
    Posts
    266
    odyssey,

    Thank you !!!!!
    As stated earlier,an attempt at fobbing off seems to be going on.

    Val
    Last edited by Mun; 01-05-2012 at 07:49 PM.
     

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    13

    A&e

    Go get 'em !

    Be strong. Be well prepared.
    List your questions and concerns in advance.
    Be clear about what it will take to resolve your concerns.
    Finally - take a friend or relative who can keep notes...you will be stressed and forget loads.


    Good luck
     

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    13
    Hi

    just a few more thoughts to add to the great advice that is already here.

    You can ask social services to intervene by raising it as a safeguarding issue. They should be able to carry out a Mental capacity assessment and establish according to the criteria that your mum lacks capacity and then they could refer for an IMCA - Independent Mental Capacity Advocate. Usually if there are family members acting in someone's best interests you would not need an IMCA but they may be able to help you argue your legitimate point and right to have your concerns heard and investigated.

    good luck
     

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Yorkshire
    Posts
    266
    If a family is concerned about any aspect of care delivery delivered to their loved ones, they can ask the professionals involved to investigate their concerns. POA or any other "legal" intervention is not needed for the patients notes to be read & a conclusion reached.
    I've been a nurse manager for many years so have dealt with this numerous times(sadly).

    Val
    Last edited by Mun; 02-05-2012 at 08:26 AM.
     

 

 

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts