To Move or Not to Move - Help please - logical, sensible, legal (?) views appreciated

[Leonora7]

Sorry to be asking advice again but I am just about to embark on a possibly foolhardy action. As posted before 90-year old Dad is very frail and cares for Mum (89) with vascular dementia. He is reaching the end of his tether and wants to proceed with the purchase of a flat within 200 paces of my house; (they currently live over 60 miles away meaning that I am a long-distance carer to them both - about which I have posted before). I had reached breaking point recently and decided to step back but, of course, I have found this impossible and have simply scaled back on the nights I actually stay in their house, making shorter visits so I can spend a little more time at home.

The local flat is ideal in that it is so near to my house (can see one bedroom window from my own bedroom), is ground floor and has two bedrooms. Naturally, my mother is up in arms and refuses to move. I am just about to submit the forms for deputyship to the COP having finally received the Psychiatrist's contribution but I guess it will be 2/3 or more months before I can use Mum's money in any way to update the flat (which could do with this but is perfectly liveable in). Dad has a savings account which would allow him to buy the flat outright but will leave him with little to draw on until the house in Herts is sold.

My questions are 1) Can I legally force Mum to move - I am not applying for Welfare deputyship as I understand this is virtually impossible to get and wanted to go for the quickest route. I am also not applying for right to sell the house yet - is this easier to get once I have the general property and affairs deputyship? 2) I acknowledge that the move will probably result in a downturn in my Mum's dementia but I really don't know what the alternative is. Whatever we do she will be unhappy, even if it is only increase the carers' hours. After all, she has nothing wrong with her and does everything herself. I have tried to explain to her that there are three options: move closer, go into a home or have someone to live with them full-time. But, of course, Mum cannot rationalise and just goes into a bitter sulk whenever the subject is raised. Dad cannot carry on much longer without a disaster I am certain, then the decision will be taken out of our hands. I feel it would be better for them to have even a few months where I can tend to them daily and where my stress will be ameliorated by the proximity of their home to my own.

Any advice will be so greatly appreciated as I have only a short time to make the decision before the flat goes to someone else (I imagine).

So many thanks for TP help, as always.

Jenny

[Butter]

Poor you. Your poor parents. I am so sorry. Your Mum will have rights to the marital home. Is she likely to take legal advice - and then follow it through? Certainly my mum would have done. Is anyone likely to take up the issue on her behalf?
We all have rights to our homes and these vary according to who owns them, how long we've been there, on what basis we've been there. It is variable.
Maybe your Dad could buy the new place and move there himself. Would that provoke your mum to join him? Might that provoke a more manageable crisis?

[Leonora7]

Hi Butter

Thanks for your reply. The house is owned as tenants in common so my mother would certainly get her half of the proceeds when it is sold and the idea is that the flat be bought in Dad's name and before any decision is made regarding the house sale (or rental?). So the two transactions would be totally independent of each other and Mum does not have any legal axe to grind as far as I am aware. She is not capable of arranging a solicitor's appointment, never mind attending and there is no-one to advocate for her as I am an only child and she is estranged from her remaining brother. If Mum stayed in the house, at the moment (prior to deputyship coming through) she would be quite incapable of managing without assistance although she will not acknowledge this fact. If the idea is for my stress levels to be reduced by parental proximity this would mean I would have to choose between the two of them in a sense and, unfortunately, I think Mum would be the one to suffer as the frequent journeys up and down the motorway are exactly why we are looking into this solution. But, one HUGE point to consider is that Mum refuses to pay for anything (care is currently paid for by Dad) so she would really be high and dry until my deputyship comes through. Legally, I am wondering whether she can be 'forced' to move.

Oh, it is all such a mess...

Jenny

[Onlyme]

We brought MIL over to stay with us and the change of location brought on a massive down turn. She was talking to herself, shouting, distroying things - it was dreadful. I really think you need to take medical advice on what it is likely to do to her.

If she is mobile she will keep trying to get back to the other house as the new flat will not be somewhere she recognises which could lead to more stress for your dad.

Quite apart from if your Mum wants to move the other thing that crossed my mind was the finances.

If your father is still in the house when your Mother goes into care that house will be disregarded from finacial assessment. Any savings will be divided by two and half will be hers. I am not sure how this will work if they have recently moved to a smaller property as there will be more savings to give to care home making it hard for your Dad in future years.

[Butter]

Unless she is proved to have 'lost capacity' or to be a danger to herself or others she cannot be forced. That is what is happening when people are sectioned.
This may sound harsh but - personnally - if it was my parents - I would try force of circumstances: try and provoke her into moving with your dad but if she refused to come along leave her behind. Others will come along who can tell you more about how to alert Social Services. That might provoke the crisis, but sometimes that is the only way. I've been there with my parents and they are both alive to tell the tale. It is very distressing and stressful for you. I am so sorry.

[Leonora7]

Hi Lemony

As Mum has always insisted on her own accounts there is only one joint account required in order for her to receive £15 a month from the US government pension scheme! So her money is the limit of what is available for care home fees. The house they currently live in is held as tenants in common so, again, she will receive half of that. The flat would be in Dad's name as he would be entirely funding the purchase - would it still be considered as a shared property then? I was hoping this would not be the case. At present if Dad predeceases Mum (likely scenario given his frailty) his half of the house will come to me according to his will. Presumably the flat would also come to me but I don't know whether this would mean a will change would be required.

Jenny

[Leonora7]

Butter - the memory clinic psychiatrist has signed the assessment of capacity for the Court of Protection so doesn't this mean that Mum has, in fact, lost capacity?

Lemony - I appreciate that Mum may go a bit ape (to put it mildly) but at the moment she does not seem to like going out at all. I suppose the illness is so changeable there is no way of knowing what her reaction would be - other than a grim refusal to speak to anyone. The psychiatrist previously said moving her would be a mistake but we have an appointment with her in 2 weeks - pain that it is not sooner as the flat may go in that time. The thing is that Dad's life is miserable now so I don't know how much worse it would be and I would be very local to pick up any pieces...

[Chemmy]

I can't give any legal type advice - in fact, if it was me I'd go and talk to a solicitor asap and get a definitive answer/range of options.

But if I had to choose, I would do what's best for your dad. Alzheimers has claimed your mum; it shouldn't be allowed to see off your dad too.

Good luck

[Butter]

Leonora7 - I don't know. You'd need to talk the whole thing through with a solicitor. But isn't your poor mum too unwell to understand anyway? - I mean when my mum was last really ill all the solicitors and legal advice in the world made no difference to how she behaved.

[Leonora7]

Hi Chemmy

I think you are echoing the way I'm feeling. Dad has said to me that he should be allowed some peace in his final days. Of course, as cited by others, he absolutely may not get this locally to me but Mum may need to go into a home soon anyway. His concern is also for me and the toll all the toing and froing has taken on my health. I love my Dad fiercely and - I feel terribly guilty to admit it - I resent my mother for what she is doing to him. I want her to be happy but I don't know that this is possible any more - whatever way I turn the solution will be heartily begrudged and she is quite a bitter woman in the first place.

Jenny

[Leonora7]

Butter - you're right. Mum does not understand much any more and it is completely impossible to rationalise about anything. I just want her to be safe and well fed and clean. If she is a few paces away from me she can come and sit in my garden or dining room and watch the birds for a break from Dad and a small flat. She can go out to garden centres with me. And he will get a break. I could even take her to local dementia cafes - I had planned to do this in Herts but every time the date comes up it coincides with a medical appointment so have been unable to do so yet.

Jenny

[Chemmy]

Then follow your gut feeling. It's often said on TP, carers are allowed to say '"I've had enough" and it must have been desperately hard for your dad to admit this, but now he has, he needs your support to see this through.

If it was me? I'd be looking at putting mum straight in a CH and moving dad into the flat. Moving her in with him is going to be no less traumatic than the CH option and at the ripe old age of 90, he really doesn't need or deserve the hassle.

PS you can still take her out!

[Isabella41]

Hi Jenny,

My own mum is 84 and has been deemed by the psychiatrist to lack capacity to make informed sensible decisions. If you were to talk to mum she comes across as very plausible however. She is adamnant that there is absoultely nothing wrong with her and whilst initially she agreed to carers going in 4 times per day to give her medication and see that she was clean and fed this lasted all of about 4-5 wks.

I'm an only child and mum was living on her own 90 mins drive from where I live. There were alot of problems but as I work full time and have poor health I was only able to visit once per week. I persuaded her to move closer to me into sheltered accomodation. She moved in the middle of January this year. She was happy for all of a couple of weeks and then she started to complain of lonliness. This was her own imagination as I was there every evening and spent most of Saturday and a signifcant part of Sunday with her. She started leaving the hob on and very nearly got knocked down by trying to cross a busy main road more than once by stepping out into the traffic and hoping cars/lorries would stop.

I contacted elderly social services and told them we needed more help as I was struggling to cope. I was more less doing everything for mum at this point. Even when I was away from her she was never off the phone demanding something or other.

Butter talked about forcing circumstances. I agree with her. Sometimes the only way to get Social Services to act is when a crisis arises. In my case I was taken suddenly ill and needed to go into hospital. The social worker went from telling me that they couldn't force mum into a home against her will to telling mum that they were taking her for tests when in reality she was admitted into respite care.

A care management meeting was held and mum is now in a permanent EMI residental Unit. Within hours of going there she was on the phone demanding to be taken home. She thinks all the other residents are stupid - her words not mine. She tells the most fantastic stories about the deprived conditions she's being kept in. She's now saying she wants to be on her own and hates all these people. She could sit in her very large room with its own seating area and TV but she just likes to moan. She won't be happy anywhere I take her.

Chemmy suggested having your mum placed directly into a care home. I agree with this idea especially as you mention having "a few months" with them in the new place. It would probably be less unsettling for your mum to go straight into a care home than into a new flat and then possibly moved to a care home a short time later. It would also mean your Dad has more freedom to enjoy his remaining years in his new home close to you. You would normally still be able to take your mum out of the care home for lunch etc.

As for the finances i would have thought that as long as the savings your dad has held have been in his name from the start it would not be taken into account when assessing care home fees but I am in agreement with the others on here who say you really should take immediate financial advice from a solictor as you don't want your Dad to be accused of disposing of assets to try to get out of paying care home fees should that suituation arise.

You really are in a horrible suituation right now and my heart goes out to you.

Isabella

[Leonora7]

Hi Isabella

I've followed your threads with horror at the way the SS ignored all common sense regarding your mother and her ability to function without your input. I sincerely hope that your mother stays safely in the EMI home and that no-one thinks it fit to allow her to travel to England as suggested by her sister. You should now be able to concentrate on your own health and family. As you say sometimes our parents are never going to be happy, it's all such a pickle (to put it mildly). Mum does have enough savings to see her through at least 2 years in an (expensive) home and, once the house is sold that would give her another 3 years I imagine so I don't know that I should worry about the monetary side of this at all. But I'm not sure that Dad is prepared to put her in a home even now. He thinks that being nearer will solve quite a few of the current problems; I think he's right but the biggest one of Mum's response to the move is the real worry obviously. I think I'm going to sleep on this one over the weekend. If the flat goes in the meantime then that is what was meant to be. So difficult to make an assertive decision and so difficult to discuss it with Dad without Mum being around, even on the phone he has to use speakerphone owing to his deafness and this precludes him from having any sort of private conversation with me. I've sent him an email and told him to look on his iPad to check what I've found out but not sure he will remember how to use this function!

Jenny

[Chemmy]

Sleeping on it is a wise decision!

Just remember, you and your dad, as joint carers, have to do what's in your mum's best interests; she does not get a say in what is going to happen, particularly as she will veto any of the choices.

Regardless of the official line, she is clearly no longer capable of making this sort of decision and carers' rights/wishes take priority.

Your dad may believe some sort of magic wand is going to make everything better by moving nearer you. You need to be absolutely honest with yourself and him as to whether you are going to be able to deliver what he expects from you. If you don't want to take on that level of care, you too are entitled to say no. Don't sign up to something like this unless you really want to do it, otherwise you'll be back here before you know it wondering what to do next